Season 5, Episode 196 : Why Business Can’t Wait for Climate Policy (And Shouldn’t Have To): Roz Savage MP

Roz: challenges can seem really, really big and daunting, but when you just keep showing up and you just keep chipping away at them, it's quite astonishing what you can achieve with effort consistently applied over time. Ocean rowers are nothing if not tenacious.
Will: Welcome back to Sustainability Solved, where we'll be helping you and your organisation turn environmental challenges into business opportunities.
Will: I'm Will Richardson, Founder and Chief Purpose and Innovation Officer of Green Element Group. And as ever, I'm joined by Charlie Luxton.
Charlie: Hello, Will.
Will: Hello.
Charlie: How are you?
Will: I'm very good, I'm very good.
Charlie: I'm quite excited about what we're going to chat about today because it feels very, uh, timely, because it's, uh, we're talking to, uh, Roz Savage, who's an MP, who's been trying to get the Climate and Nature Bill through Parliament, and that's been a rocky ride. So it feels like we're almost touching into our current affairs, Will.
Will: [00:01:00] Yeah, well, and that's, and you know what? It is so connected, isn't it? Politics and business and the stability, and I think that's what people really wanted from this current government was stability after the, the, the, the, I'm trying to say a word that's not a swear word, show. Yes, yes, yes.
Charlie: it was a really interesting conversation. I think there's two, lots of takeouts from it.
Charlie: one, I felt that there was a general positivity that. That despite the bill being kicked into the long grass, so to speak, elements of it might come back, which, and that actually as organizational leads and business owners owners that we got to keep the pedal to the metal because this stuff isn't going away.
Charlie: It just might take a little bit longer and we're not quite sure of the form that it's going to come in, but it's definitely not going away. And I thought one of the really interesting points she made, because one of the big criticisms I think of. Current legislation around sustainability and certainly nature and environment is the lack of funding and that yes, there's lots [00:02:00] of legislation, but there's no funding and everyone's increasingly it's it's irrelevant.
Charlie: And she sort of made a really good point that if government constantly says it has no money and has no money and doesn't invest in these areas, people would just ignore and get on with stuff on their own and government becomes less important in wider society, which was a moment of Anyway, I'm giving it away.
Charlie: I'm giving away some stuff. I think it was a really interesting point of like Oh yeah, we've got to get on and just do this stuff ourselves and it is up to businesses and organizations to solve it because government, frankly, ain't up to purpose on this one. That was my main takeout, but you might have a different one.
Will: I think you're right, to a degree. I also took that, climate change is quite on the schedule. With politicians. I was, I, it was nice to hear that, that politicians on the whole actually understand climate change. And there was no real kickback. What was happening was party [00:03:00] politics, and that's the system we're in, not the understanding of climate change, which, to me, is rubbish but good at the same time.
Charlie: Such a glass half full person, Will. I love it. Shall we get into it? Let's hear what Ross has got to say.
Charlie:
Charlie: So before we dive into the Climate and Nature Bill, the Can Bill, let's, can we just roll back a little bit and, and, and find out a little bit about you and your unique background.
Roz: It is a little bit unusual as career paths go, isn't it? Um, yes, I, I started out in business for 11 years, but then I had sort of early midlife crisis combined with an environmental awakening, uh, which led to me. becoming the first woman to row solo across three oceans. And I was specifically using my expeditions to raise awareness of the environmental crisis. And actually, I think it [00:04:00] was very good preparation for standing for parliament and now being an MP. all that experience of navigating shark infested waters, you know, standing me in good stead.
Charlie: And stamina.
Will: you've probably got, And I would imagine you've got loads of tales.
Will: but. Yeah, I mean, so impressive of you, Rozz, for doing that. It's brilliant. Mm,
Roz: built for endurance, not speed. And actually, because I had that environmental mission, it sort of helped that, my ocean voyages were on average about three and a half months long, because obviously, while I was out on the ocean was the main opportunity to get my environmental message across.
Roz: So I would. write on my blog about the adventure for, five or six days out of the week, and then lace it with a bit of environmental messaging on the other one or two days of the week. So hopefully I was reaching a different audience from usual environmental campaigning. That was very much the intention behind it. And as it turns out, ocean rowing is also just [00:05:00] so rich with, with metaphors and learnings. about our relationship between humans and the environment. It's incredibly humbling being out there in a storm, in a tiny rowboat. It really gives you a very different perspective on where humans stand in the overall scheme of things, um, particularly in relation to the, the sheer power of the natural world. So I think when we're on dry land, we can imagine that we've got nature nicely tamed and under control. But in the middle of an ocean, you're very clear about who's in charge and it's not us.
Charlie: What were you what did you do in business before your environmental awakening and your sort of love of the sea became expressed in the most extraordinary way.
Roz: Yeah, nothing terribly glamorous. I was, essentially a project manager in IT, so it was a fairly technology based form of, consulting, really.
Charlie: And what do you think was the biggest single lesson you got from rowing over three [00:06:00] oceans? That's a really difficult question
Roz: Oh, so, so, many. But, um, I suppose one that I find a great source of strength and resilience in the face of adversity, again, very useful training for politics, is that challenges can seem really, really big and daunting, but when you just keep showing up and you just keep chipping away at them, it's quite astonishing what you can achieve with effort consistently applied over time. Ocean rowers are nothing if not tenacious.
Charlie: that thing recently, which is what you, you overestimate what you can achieve in a day and underestimate what you're can achieve in a year. And, and, and it sort of seems to chime with your experience.
Roz: totally, yes, I remind myself it took me about five million oar strokes to get across those
Roz: three oceans. I mean, I wasn't counting, but, you know, just, just, uh,
Charlie: are your hands? How are your calluses? I'm a bit like, whoa.
Roz: [00:07:00] as a baby's bottom now, but, um, they, they were my badges of honour.at the end of a voyage, but,yeah, it, it really, it is just the idea of one oar stroke at a time.
Roz: Just keep plugging away, just keep showing up because so much of success is about just not quitting.``````
Charlie: so tell me about the second lightbulb moment when you stopped rowing and took up politics.
Roz: well, there'd been a few years in between during which I'd done a lot of thinking, studying, and soul searching about why this environmental mission that I was on didn't seem to be succeeding, why we weren't yet on track for a more sustainable future. So I'd actually done a doctorate, on this. saying, why do we as a species, as humans, not seem to be getting the message? And it resulted in not just a dissertation, but a book, shameless plug, called The Ocean in a Drop. Um, [00:08:00] Which were, is a cheery romp through politics, environmentalism, economics, psychology and neuroscience and basically arrives at the conclusion that this stuff is really, really hard and we might not get it solved. And maybe things will have to get a lot worse before they get better.so having. written all of that and done all of this thinking, I felt like I had some ideas because the book does actually end on a much more positive note, I want you to know, about how I think we can still solve this, um, sustainability solved indeed, um, and I was trying to find a way that I could put some of these ideas into practice. And over the years, a few people had said to me that I should think about going into politics. to which I would usually respond with mock indignation, say that's an appalling idea. How dare you insult me in such a way. But actually, um, it was the day of the Queen's funeral that I was reflecting on her life of 70 years of [00:09:00] public service. And somehow Something clicked, and I just thought, you know what, if she could do 70 years, then I'm willing to give up, as many years of my life as my constituents are willing to have me to, to give this a go. And,within less than two years, I found myself a Member of Parliament.
Charlie: I just, very quickly, it's interesting that you, you, you had the kind of audacity, if you like, to state that we might not solve this issue. That actually, it's such a massive one that the algorithms that we have are so challenged by the scale of it. The time scale, the time frames and the physical scale of the sustainability emergency that most people just don't seem to comprehend it.
Charlie: Um, but to write that down, to think it, it's sort of like the unspoken, sort of, unspoken truth, isn't it? No one admits that. Especially from the sustainability side.
Roz: Well, it's, it's not a very positive message, is it? I, I [00:10:00] think it's very difficult to get that right balance between saying, We have a really big existential problem here, people, and we need to do something about it. How do you strike that right balance between scaring people to the extent that they just shut down and go, well, clearly we're all doomed. So what's the point in even trying? and saying without sugarcoating anything, actually we can do something. We have to do something. And even if it is too little, too late, there is a lot that we can. get out of this as individuals, as communities. There are a lot of things about getting on track for a more sustainable lifestyle that deliver short term benefits as well. and You know, I'm convinced that we could have happier people and a healthier planet at the same time. But it's very difficult without being able to have a one to one conversation with, with each person
Roz: individually to strike the right balance. and I think maybe the [00:11:00] environmental messaging over the years could have maybe been pitched a bit differently, could have been pitched in a more positive and encouraging way.
Roz: could maybe have been more about saving the humans, not saving the planet or saving the whales. not saying that saving the planet and saving the whales are not good things, but I think some healthy self interest needs to come into the equation as well.
Charlie: I mean, when, when, when I'm talking to clients about sustainable architecture, I talk about trying to save the environment with a capital E that, you know, reduce your impact on the planet, but also the literally I, your, your, the environment immediately around you and where you spend your time, your home, and how a low energy home is far more healthier for you.
Charlie: As well as being cheaper, so there's trying to get people to understand or workplace or any of these places that actually there's loads of rub off benefits that we don't spend enough time discussing, you know, Yeah, I imagine that, you know, both of you have obviously thought about these questions. a huge amount. And how do we strike that, [00:12:00] that right balance of, being positive while also acknowledging fully
Charlie: the, the scale of the problem? I feel that I often have these competing narratives in my own head. So how
Charlie: handle it?
Will: I think lots of people do. I'm constant, I've been, I mean, I did my first talk on climate change when I was 15, so I've been thinking about this for quite a long time, but I, but I'm positive, positive. I've been constantly positive. I can't help it. I think that's in nature, but there's so many conversations around exactly this within the climate community of, do we go, you know, do we shake a stick?
Will: Do we be positive? Do, and I don't think there is a right or wrong. And as you said, it's, it's. Every individual person will respond differently, and you can't go around and talk to every single person individually.
Charlie: but what we are going to need is government leadership on this issue, whatever is going to happen. So tell me a little bit about the history of the climate and nature bill, a kind of pod history of where we [00:13:00] are to get to this point, what's happened recently, uh, it's been in the news and where we're going.
Roz: Actually, Charlie, I'm sorry. I know you keep trying to get into the climate and nature bill, but can I just add another piece onto what we were talking about a moment ago? Because I just feel like there's an elephant in the room
Roz: So I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I feel like I do just need to name this elephant in the room, is that the model of capitalism that we have at the moment is almost designed to encourage the exploitation and the pollution of nature. Now I'm absolutely not saying that all capitalism is bad, but predatory capitalism, that sort of profit at the cost of all else, including
Roz: The earth, including our ecosystems.it puts the incentives in the wrong places. And this is why I love the work that you guys are doing, which is about [00:14:00] encouraging a more conscious, I think, better rounded form of business that isn't purely about profit.
Roz: It's about. Doing well by doing good.
Will: Yeah.
Roz: And there absolutely is a role for that because, you know, Trump was elected last week and clearly is pulling the U S out of the, the Paris agreements. I know in a moment we're going to be talking about what governments can and should be doing on this. but there were some governments that are just not going to be supportive of the environmental agenda. So there is a massive role
Roz: for business. And, I, I absolutely. believe that we, that there is going to be a shift in the way that business is done,
Roz: that business can and must be a force for good in this equation.
Will: And you can see that with B Corp, and
Will: I went to their launch party in 2015, and they have grown arms and legs since, and I think that, you know, you've got the Better Business Act that, has come through, you've got the [00:15:00] Climate and Nature Bill as well. I think, talking about the Climate and Nature Bill, what's, like, what do you see you can envis Building onto that, because I totally agree, degrowth and that is a rabbit hole that we could definitely go down, but I think, how do you see it all fitting together with the Climate and Nature Bill?
Roz: just give a little recap of the, the four year old, four year life of the climate and nature bill. It was first started by Caroline Lucas of the Green Party about four years ago, the climate and ecology bill. And I've had some wonderful. conversations with Caroline because I feel like I adopted her baby.
Roz: So I really wanted to be respectful of the, which is now a small child, wants to be respectful of the original spirit of the bill. And, the way that I translated her original intention is that out of climate and nature, maybe the most important word in that is and, uh, because what she really wants to emphasize was that. intimate interconnection [00:16:00] between climate and nature. And I think a lot of people are aware that a changing climate destroys nature, as we've seen recently with the wildfires in California. But maybe there isn't the same level of awareness that destroying nature affects climate. We know that cutting down forests, the Amazon, does have very significant impacts on climate and affects the ability of the earth to self regulate. on its, its temperature. So, um, it was saying we cannot solve one of these crises without solving the other, that we need to do them in parallel, recognizing that, there is this, this deep interrelationship. So, in its latest incarnation, The intention of the bill is to get agreements that have been made internationally, under climate agreements and biodiversity agreements like the Leaders Pledge for Nature, like the Global Biodiversity Framework, um, to get those commitments into law so that they are binding on [00:17:00] governments going forwards. And, um, To that end, it's, it's looking at, the, the secretary of state a duty to come up with a strategy that really connects those pledges with delivery on the ground. And there's also a piece about bringing people along with us saying this matters to everybody. So there's provision for a citizen's assembly that would act as an advisory body to government so that people. from across British society would feel that they have a voice in this, that there is somebody who broadly represents their demographic, their ethnicity, their socio economic group, their part of the country in this advisory group going forward because, Sometimes it feels like not everybody is on board with this, and I firmly believe that if we're going to solve these really difficult problems, then we do need everybody's creativity to be [00:18:00] directed at this, and we do need everybody playing their part.
Roz: So those are the broad intentions of the bill.
Charlie: And where does it sit now? I know that it's been sort of delayed and that you're having a meeting, uh, with Ed Miliband, specifically to sort of discuss, discuss the next steps. Where do you see it now? I mean, tell me a little bit about that, that vote and, and, and the, what, what happened behind the scenes, if you're able.
Charlie: Well, a really important element in this story is that I was the Climate and Nature Bill as a private member's bill. So this wasn't, I happen to be a Lib Dem MP, but this wasn't a Lib Dem bill. there's this weird sort of lottery where they literally pull little numbered balls out of a goldfish bowl like it's the FA Cup Seems a perfectly sensible way to run a country, doesn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. Brilliant. Love it. my god, I wouldn't realise that,
Roz: I, I know. I know it's insane. It wasn't. I think it was filmed. Um, I know that saying about laws and sausages. [00:19:00] You just don't want to see how they're made. Um, so it was very random and. completely unmeritocratic, but it was also a great opportunity. And I knew immediately that I wanted to do something in the environmental arena. it has been quite a learning journey. Private members bills generally only succeed if they are small and bite sized in their ambition. And of course, climate and nature bill is about as big as it gets. So, uh, it does seem to be a recurring pattern in my life that I bite off more than I can chew and then try and chew it anyway. but I did have an absolutely brilliant campaign team behind me. Zero Hour have been
Roz: working on this for several years. They already had a massive level of support across the public, scientists, trade unions, celebrities, the big environmental NGOs, like pretty much every big non [00:20:00] governmental organization you can think of was behind this. So we already had all of that to build on, but ultimately we did runa government that was opposed to this bill coming into law.
Charlie: Why? Because I voted for this government, and, and I voted for them because I, there was an understanding that they showed a, they showed an understanding and a concern for nature, in, in certainly in some of the, some of the policy that they were discussing.
Roz: Well, opinions vary and I want to be a little bit careful what I say because I'm very much hoping to work with this government going forwards because I, I think that part of the reason that there was so much support for the Climate and Nature Bill was that the general public feel like there is a lot more that can and must be done.
Roz: I think there was maybe a degree of political tribalism, which is enormously frustrating because I'm guessing that you would agree with me that these issues are too big and too important to be subject to party [00:21:00] politics. And I was really proud that. Of my 11 co sponsors of this bill, they spanned all the major political parties. So we had Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems, Green, Plaid Cymru and SNP co sponsors for the bill. It felt really important to build that coalition.I think that the government feels it's already doing as much as can be done.I've known Ed Miliband when I first met him in 2009, I don't claim to know him well, but I do absolutely believe that his heart's in the right
Will: Yeah, so do
Charlie: and that, he's pushing really hard, certainly on net zero. I do think that he could be doing more to explore the nature based approach to climate mitigation and climate adaptation. I, I think that that was a big part of the problem, that, this government with a very big majority didn't want some newbie, upstart, Lib Dem backbencher coming along and pretending to tell them what to do.That's pretty damning, isn't it, if I'm honest?
Roz: oh, I, I hope not, because I'm really hoping
Charlie: No, no, I, [00:22:00] I don't think you are, but I think you're being very, you're being very fair and kind, but it's pretty damning that the fact that, because it wasn't their idea, they don't want to, they don't want to do it.
Roz: I also want to say, that's my interpretation.
Charlie: Yeah,
Roz: That's my story about
Will: I mean, they brought, they brought the Climate Change Act in in 2011, didn't they? So therefore, they've got history here. They do have history within sustainability.
Charlie: yeah.
Roz: do, and it's, it's a good history, and I, I do hope that in the future, you know, they have made some commitments that do open the door to future cross party work, and, It's too soon to tell, it's still less than a week since the Climate and Nature Bill had its day in the spotlight, being debated in the House of Commons on what was quite an intense day, um, after not very much sleep the night before. so as time goes on, I hope that we will see a genuine [00:23:00] willingness
Roz: to work across all the parties. on this because that is what we need going forward. I don't think the world has ever had quite such a non predictable political future. We're seeing the rise of some pretty extreme groups across the world and It does feel important that we we lock these environmental protections into law so that we future proof. I hope against radical changes in the
Roz: future.
Charlie: what do you think the implications are for businesses, this sort of uncertainty, because whether you were, you know, a supporter of the Cam Bill or not, the fact that there might have been quite a sort of chunky piece of legislation that you could plan around has now gone.
Charlie: And in fact, if anything, you're left with a bit more uncertainty that the bill might come back, that there's a conversation with Ed Miliband, for businesses, where do you think there are holes in legislation? And where do you think this is going to affect them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Roz: I think people generally and business people in particular really like to know where the goalposts are.
Roz: Whatever [00:24:00] business you're in, you're having to make long term investment decisions and you need clarity about what is the national strategy and whether you like it or whether you don't like it, at least it gives you that framework. to operate within. And we've seen in the past when there have been potential strong environmental legislation coming into force around electric vehicles or, whatever, it's the uncertainty that business
Roz: really hates. No,
Roz: please just tell us what's going on so that we can plan. so at the moment it does feel like I I would imagine businesses feel like they're getting mixed messages from the government.
Roz: On the one hand, they're gung ho for net zero, but on the other hand, they're talking about expanding airports and building new runways. So, where are we? Where are we heading?
Will: kind of interesting though, isn't it? Is that
Charlie: this uncertainty seems to be an absolute paralyzer for the whole of the business sector. So for example, uh, biodiversity net gain, [00:25:00] BNG, you know, big thing introduced recently, lots of conversations about. You know, biodiversity net gain, points and, and, and all kinds of work to credits and all kinds of work around that.
Charlie: And then there's the hints of the question that they're going to can that. And then everyone just sort of stops work and sort of shuts up shop and just goes, well, if I sit, sit back and sit my hands, I don't need to do anything. find this lack of clarity, deeply damaging. And do you think that the government themselves have.
Charlie: An understanding of that, or do you think they're more interested in the pure policy direction?
Roz: I'm not close enough to government to be able
Roz: to answer that question
Charlie: you're, you're hearing the mood music in the, in the corridors of Westminster, one assumes.
Roz: Yes, I, I, it feels like understandably this government is still finding its feet.I, I hope that the voices I'm sure that they are talking with business and I'm hoping that the business community is using its [00:26:00] voice to say, please just give us clarity. We are happy to work with government towards greater sustainability. Please just. Make sure that there is a long term plan. Um, you know, human beings and business are generally very adaptable. There are so many stories in the business literature about the businesses that, that didn't look ahead, that, that failed to see the new technologies coming down the line and paid a heavy price for it.
Roz: So I hope that every CEO worth their salt has taken note of that. Generally, human beings don't love change. But once it happens, we are quite adaptable to it. I do believe we're endlessly creative and over human history, there have been some pretty major seismic shifts in the direction of travel. I know it's a, an analogy that's brought up a lot, but um, When slavery ended, [00:27:00] so many businesses were saying that they were going to fail if they no longer were able to exploit human beings. So where we are now, we're saying we need to stop exploiting nature. We cannot carry on doing this. And there's a certain amount of squealing going on about that from certain sectors. But these things can change and they need to change. When we realize that something is morally wrong, like enslaving humans, it does feel like we have enslaved nature. We have commandeered it to our profit making machines. I suppose when I woke up to all of this, I was really trying to figure out how can I personally make a living in a way that feels in right relationship with nature? How can I minimize the harm that I'm causing on this planet? And I suppose when we come at and when we whether we're talking about an individual life or whether we're talking about a business, through that lens, we start to see [00:28:00] different possibilities.
Roz: It's just a matter of looking at the same business through a different perspective.
Will: Yeah, I think we've got a client, a law firm that have now looked at their books and if their large clients are not looking at sustainability, they see it as a massive risk and these contracts are millions of pounds and so they are going. actually, they're a risk if they're not looking at sustainability.
Will: We can't work with them because they may not actually be around in 10 years time. so I think that's that certainty, but I think legislation brings into that. And I, I guess with the Climate and Nature Bill, let's, in July, it all goes through. what do you see as a positive things that will happen on the back of that? What are definitive things that could happen on the back of it going through?
Roz: I really want to manage expectations about what's actually going to happen in July. Last Friday, the bill was technically [00:29:00] adjourned. Until the 11th of July. In practice, I'm afraid that what that means is that when it comes back around, it will be so far down the order paper. That
Roz: it won't, it won't get debated. It has effectively been
Roz: kicked into touch.
Roz: Yeah.I do hope that in the future the Climate and Nature Bill or something very much like it, that it will yet again rise from the ashes. I do think the way that change often happens is,we plug away for, for years and years. So this is the story that I tell myself, and that I think is quite helpful for environmental campaigners when we feel that we've worked so hard for so long and change is not always discernible. I feel like everything that we do is adding another feather or another grain of sand to one side of the scales. And we hear a lot about tipping points in a negative sense. We hear about them in the environmental sense of certain tipping points being reached in,
Roz: in the [00:30:00] Arctic or around biodiversity loss or about coral reefs, but there can also be positive tipping points.
Roz: you look at when the Berlin Wall came down. Most people didn't see that coming, but clearly there were things happening under the surface that led to a sudden radical shift and the world opens up. So I do think that the really hard graft that people have been putting in for decades now is gradually leading
Roz: up to a tipping point
Roz: where, again, this is the story that I tell myself because it keeps me going when, when the going gets tough, that there will be that tipping point and we will have this outbreak of common sense, this realization that the fate.
Roz: of humans and the fate of the rest of nature are inextricably linked. And if we're not taking care of the natural world, we
Roz: are eroding our own future
Roz: [00:31:00] that, that we cannot exist
Will: And I
Will: think,
Roz: a rich natural
Charlie: so are you, are you expecting businesses and organizations to now take the lead? Because clearly politics isn't.
Roz: I wouldn't say that politics is not taking the lead but I do think it could be doing a lot more and I would really, I think the change needs to come from everywhere. When I was asking myself this question, why is change so hard? I was for a while saying it needs to be bottom up, do you need to be top down?
Roz: I actually think we need it to be bottom up, top down and middle out. Whoever we are, whatever work we do, however we live our lives, we all have a lot more power than we allow ourselves to believe to create a more sustainable future.
Will: I think you're spot on, but the, and I think that the, the general consensus within the general public is definitely understanding. sustainability much more. My worry is there seems to be an apathy within politics, and always has been as well. If you listen [00:32:00] to the rhetoric around many leading politicians, they seem to always be on the, almost the denial side of climate change, and that worries me because you've got a general public actually do understand it because they're not stupid. We're being led by this apathy, and it's refreshing to listen to people like you, Ros, because it's who you, who we need to be in government. And does that sit with what you know from politics?
Roz: We've got one of the most centralised democracies in Europe and I think part of the problem with having a very centralised democracy is that lobbyists have got a very small target. There's a relatively small number of people that they can influence to maybe limit our speed of travel towards a more sustainable future. And I think what we're going to see over the coming years, is [00:33:00] that there are going to be more communities taking back power at a more local level. And that might come out of the current messaging that we're getting, that there is no money in government, so there's no money in local government. If we keep being told there is no money in these public bodies, I do think that we're going to see more people looking round to their neighbours saying, what can we do locally?
Roz: And I've already seen this in my constituency. We've got more community fridges. pantries that redistribute food that would otherwise go to waste. We've got wardrobe swaps, we've got, tool shares, we've got people sharing resources in ways that save their money at the household level, but also reduce their environmental impact.
Roz: We've got more businesses working with communities, to increase sustainability.
Roz: so hmm,
Charlie: saying, Ros, is that effectively without meaning to or intentionally or unintentionally, government is retrent, retreating from. Political [00:34:00] control because of a lack of resource that if you and this is very interesting I asked a person who runs the biggest nature charity in the area where you'll live.
Charlie: I don't live very far from you And and I said, what do you make of the climate nature? But she said we don't need much more legislation We just need some funding, you know, there are amazing nature recovery plans out there and the government have set them out There's loads of legislation being put out there around all kinds of stuff and there's no funding And so nothing seems to happen.
Charlie: So are you effectively saying that if the government carries on in that role, that we will just start solving these problems ourselves and sort of just go, well, whatever, you guys can sit in Westminster and chat away. You don't really impact my life. I'll solve this problem myself.
Roz: I hope I'm not digging myself into a political hole here. Uh,
Charlie: It's a very good insight. I think you're absolutely right. I hadn't thought about it like that. It's a really good insight, by the way.
Roz: think what government needs to do is to create the framework within which these local initiatives can flourish [00:35:00] and I think that should include funding. and I, I know at the moment, we've been told there is no funding. so it might be that, with that human creativity and resourcefulness and motivation at the local level that, um, people are able to make a little go a long way. I'm not giving up on national policy. I'm just saying that maybe the focus, you're absolutely right, Charlie, we do need to bridge that gap between policy and delivery, because I don't think that's happening at the moment, but. I know for sure there are so many people out there who really, really care. One of the most positive aspects from this, very challenging journey with the Climate and Nature Bill is just feeling the level of public engagement and passion for this bill. People are desperate about the state of our natural world. They
Roz: can see that there are not as many insects or birds as
Roz: they used to be. They're seeing the pollution in the rivers. They know that something needs to [00:36:00] change. so I think if government is smart, it can tap into all of that enthusiasm and give it a focus and a direction in a coordinated way. I'm going to be doing, um, slightly still processing what happened over this very intense journey with the bill is looking at what I can do here in my own constituency of the South Cotswolds to start piloting some of these ideas here. Like, I have a lot of farmers who are having a very tough time at the moment. I've also got the Royal Agricultural University in Cirencester here. So how can we bring farmers together with the Royal Ag, to share knowledge or
Roz: sometimes just to share war stories? Because We know that farmers are under a terrible lot of pressure at the moment. There is, there's a lot that can be done that doesn't have to cost a lot.
Roz: That's all I've got on that
Charlie: [00:37:00] think that's really interesting that there's a lot that can be done that doesn't have to cost a lot. And it strikes me. And so that, you know, just, just. Pushing that back and refocusing back to business owners and organization leaders, you know, where do you think they should respond to, to, to what's happened?
Charlie: I mean, what, what do you think the message the government is on purpose or, or without maybe even meaning to, what's the message they're giving them, that you're on your own, that you have to prove that being sustainable is, is, is you have to make that a business success as well as sustainability success and that we're not gonna.
Charlie: to sort of support you that with legislation? What are they, what are they saying?
Roz: Well, I think increasingly, businesses will see that, regardless of government policy, that it's, a winner with their customers and also with their staff to really start doing the right thing. I've been working with a lot of young people in, the run up to the Climate and Nature Bill, reading. [00:38:00] And we know that young people now going into work want to do something that, that feels right. Something that feels purpose led.
Roz: And so, I would really encourage business leaders to listen to what their staff and their customers are saying. Because I, I do think that that, that demand is growing.
Will: And what are you looking ahead? Looking ahead, I mean, what do you think, where do you think we're going to go with environmental regulation? I mean, we're still having a degradation of, uh, biodiversity in this country. It's still going down. We haven't even turned that, that corner. So we're so far away from the rhetoric.
Charlie: It's quite extraordinary. Clearly we admitted more CO2 last year than ever before. It's not going, it's not even, the curve's not even going down. Where do you see legislate, and the fact that the government are turning away this bill, clearly seems to show a disconnect, potentially, and talking about new runways, seems to show a [00:39:00] disconnect, potentially, between what their ambitions are and these facts on the ground.
Charlie: how can businesses best operate to leverage change in that legislation if that's believed what they want to do? I mean, how can businesses get involved in the political agenda to support people like you bring forward bills like CAN?
Roz: So what I'm being told in my interactions with government ministers is that they do meet regularly with business people. They do meet meet regularly with the environmental NGOs. but there still seems to be a gap there. They might be meeting with them, but how much are they really working with them? did they meet with farmers before they made certain quite radical changes there? I do think that government, no matter what its political hue, does need to get much In a way, a bit humbler about working with stakeholders about having conversations that there needs to be a more collaborative [00:40:00] approach there because increasingly we are seeing more career politicians who have not worked in the sectors that they then have such power over.
Roz: Obviously, that's not universal. I do not want to tar all
Roz: politicians with that, with that brush. But there has been a certain degree of, I suppose, autocracy from new ministers coming in and wanting to really make a mark. And I think taking a bit more time to be in dialogue with the relevant stakeholders and finding out how things could be translated into the real world in a pragmatic and realistic way.
Roz: I mean, it, to me, it just seems blindingly quick. obvious. Why, why wouldn't you engage with stakeholders? Because policy is going to be that much more effective when it's been developed collaboratively.you're going to get less pushback, and you will also know that it can work, that it can actually deliver on what it's setting out to deliver. it doesn't have to look like a [00:41:00] citizens assembly, but it does have to look like more collaboration.
Will: So maybe you have a minimum term for government departments so you
Roz: Wouldn't that be a great idea?
Will: yeah,
Will: rather than have, have someone once every two months that then has to try and put their mark on it.
Charlie: And what do you, what do you think, what, you're obviously new to parliament,Have you been surprised by other MPs attitudes towards the environment, reassured or, or, or, or, or, or sort of disappointed?
Roz: I would say that it, it varies. the
Charlie: political answer?
Roz: No, I'm not a very political person, quite
Charlie: go on then, dish the dirt.
Roz: I've been really, really impressed with the depth of knowledge. of some, uh, I suppose my fellow Lib Dems are the ones that I know the best. And, I really want to give a shout out to Pippa Halings. Who is our environmental spokesperson who is so knowledgeable on this and she's been absolutely my right hand woman throughout these climate and [00:42:00] nature, um, deliberations. so. it it varies from the, the deeply impressive to the, not so much. I do think a lot of MPs get it. There were a lot of Labour MPs, I don't think I'm being indiscreet here, were willing to defy the whip to actually say, no, we are going to support this bill, even though I believe that they were under a lot. of pressure to, behave themselves and vote along party lines. So I really want to commend them for their courage in being willing to do that. As it turned out for procedural reasons, it didn't come to that particular crunch.
Charlie: would have been a fascinating crunch, wouldn't it, right? I mean, because my, my MP up here in North, uh, in, in Cherwell, Banbury. Sean Woodcock said that he would support it, but it didn't, you know, because we, our local energy group, [00:43:00] great irony is our local low carbon group, we've built affordable housing in the village for the local, for local people.
Charlie: Um, we were given 400, 000 pounds by Ed Miliband in the dying days of the last Labour government, and we've been, we've done 70 houses. Largest community owned car club, electric car club, all this stuff paid for by the man who's now canning the bill, pardon my pun, uh, which is supposed to take his mantle forward.
Charlie: I mean, it looks like politics has slightly gone crazy there, but that's my rant over.
Roz: I suppose something that I had underestimated was how tribal politics can be. And, I suppose parties want to get re elected, so they want to take the credit for, for certain things. And it could be very difficult for them to allow people from other parties to, to play in their particular sandpit. I think, party politics has, I sometimes think when, If we'd have wanted to wire some of our systems to guarantee the trashing of nature, we [00:44:00] couldn't have done a better job. But when we look at our current model of neoliberal capitalism, where, that really prioritises profit, when we look at short term electoral cycles and party politics, it does seem that these are going completely the opposite direction to really having a long term strategy and to working in ways that trans sempolistic divisions. So, I don't know how, you know, if we could redesign the system from scratch, I think we would now come up with something very different, that would probably lead to wiser decisions, but I, I, we don't get that privilege.
Charlie: So, again, by inference, are you sort of suggesting that you think elements of the Cannes bill will come back into policy going forward but in different ways and possibly put forward by the government and therefore, as organizational business leaders, you should be taking this seriously and [00:45:00] preparing for it because there's an inevitability towards this direction or, or not?
Roz: Let me get out my crystal ball.
Charlie: Ah, that's what I'm asking you to do, yeah.
Will: I actually just want you to say yes to this.
Will: thank you so much for, talking to us about this, bill. I actually, I'm taking pos I'm actually taking quite a lot of positive stuff out of, no surprise there, out of what you're saying, and having people like you in politics is brilliant, And I know that there are a number of other people as well, it's not just you Roz, there are quite a few other people that understand climate change, really, is in essence. And the fact that we're moving forwards with it, it may not be in that iteration, it may be in different iterations, I think is a great, great way
Roz: Yeah, I just wish, I think that if the Climate and Nature Bill had been allowed to progress last Friday, I think it would [00:46:00] have really made a very clear and very public statement that this government is absolutely committed
Roz: to bold action, uh, necessary action on climate and nature. And that would have been very warmly welcomed by a lot of people.
Roz: I know that there was some fear mongering and some fairly bizarre rumours going round about what it was going to entail for all sorts of things. There were some conspiracy theories, um, but really the, the way that the bill would be translated into law is down to the Secretary of State. It just requires the Secretary of State to come up with the strategy. so unless the Secretary of State wants mass starvation and us all to be incarcerated in cities and all of the other things that were being alleged, which I somewhat doubt, then those would not naturally flow from the intentions of the Climate and Nature Bill. so I think a bold statement like that would have been,
Charlie: would have
Roz: been a [00:47:00] very good thing
Will: yeah,
Roz: to say this country is now committed. this. And we haven't got that. It's looking more piecemeal than
Roz: that, and that's an opportunity missed
Roz: in my view.
Roz: But we, keep coming back and, you know, we keep sticking our oars in the water and we carry on trying.
Charlie: Ros, thank you for carrying on trying and please carry on trying because we do need change and we do need politicians and politics to play a part of it. We can't just rely on business. Business can only get us so far. But we do ultimately bit we need politicians to play their part and you are and hopefully the current government who I voted for and and wondering why increasingly, um, need to play their part too.
Charlie: Anyway, that's about all we've got time for Ross. Thank you so much for joining us. That's been fantastic.
Roz: Absolute pleasure. Thank you. [00:48:00]
Charlie: So what do you make of that, Charlie? I'm actually quite positive on the back of that conversation. I know that the Climate and Nature Bill didn't go through per se, and we realise that it's quite tribal. You can take negative stuff from that, but actually, the fact that they may End up taking some of the stuff on from it, and into it, into other things.
Will: I see it as a really positive thing. It's not dead in the water, basically.
Charlie: No, no, it's not. I mean, that was really good to hear. I think the government are giving a very mixed message at the moment. And, and, in fact, failing to create a particularly coherent message on almost any Uh, and that, that continues under the, uh, you know, with, with sustainability that, you know, I, I think what you wrote is great to talk to Ros.
Charlie: It was really interesting getting a sort of an outsider's sort of a little insight into politics from an outsider, and I think ultimately she's, you [00:49:00] know, you know, you know, from a business and organization perspective, we just got to keep carrying on. And as we know, ironically, politicians don't lead, they follow.
Charlie: And, um, you know, the idea that they're leaders is almost a. Almost a joke. So actually it's up to businesses, business leaders, organization leaders to carry on leading and pushing this thing forward. So I think that's the takeout that, you know, I don't think we can expect the cavalry to ride in soon, but actually the market's still the market and consumers and you know, it's still, it's still moving in the right direction.
Charlie: So trying to take some positives. I really hope that it, yeah, she was really, she was really good actually. Yeah, and it's easy to get exhausted as, as you well know, uh, you know, having been involved in it for years and she's been pushing for years and, so, no, awesome. Really great to have people like that in, in, in parliament. That's what you kind of hope. And I think. Yeah, I think ultimately [00:50:00] don't, don't let it put you off what your plans are within your business, irrespective of what government legislation is going to say, it is going to come, it's inevitable in my mind.
Charlie: It's just, it's when, uh, so it's if not when,
Will: And how
Charlie: and how, yeah. And, and ultimately it will be led by good examples. So. Keep pushing, keep pushing. You make a difference. That's the first, that's a note to everyone is you are making a difference. Keep going. Just by listening to this podcast, you're making a difference. Anyway, that's all we've got time for today. right. Any, any sort of leaving things? I think there's some housework to do, isn't there? About, about joining the Sustainability Solved Hub. Rating the show, telling everyone you know about the show, leaving a comment on Spotify, telling everyone you know about the show again, and if you've got any thoughts or things you want to discuss or ideas, things you want us to cover, things you think we're talking rubbish about, Send us some questions, get in touch.
Charlie: We'd love to hear from you.
Will: And we're looking for sponsorship as well. I mean, there's a lot [00:51:00] of, there's a lot of things for people to do, so maybe just listen to us and pick one of them.
Charlie: Thanks for joining us. Hope to hope to hope you join us soon.