Season 5, Episode 161 : Why B Corps matter: Transforming Your Business for Positive Change

Will Richardson 00:06
Welcome to the Green Element Sustainable Business Podcast, where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I'm your host Bill Richardson. In this episode we're focusing in on B Corp month. Every year during March B Lab and the global peacock community join together to celebrate everything it means to be a B Corp. So what exactly is a B Corp. A B Corp is a for profit company certified by the nonprofit be lab to meet rigorous standards of social and environmental performance, accountability, sustainability, and transparency. B Corp is to business what Fairtrade is to coffee. It's a global movement with a vision. And that vision is that businesses that work together as a force for good can change the world. The big court movements dream is that companies will compete not just to be the best in the world, but to be the best for the world. So how can a company genuinely want to do good work that compromise its goal of maximising financial profit for owners or shareholders. Of course, we all know of corporations that pride themselves on their support of charities or pro bono work. But these are very small walk-on part in the wings, compared with the main performance maximising profits. Green element heard about the B Corp movement back in 2014. And when a client expressed an interest in becoming a certified B Corp, we decided to find out more what we found amazed and inspired us. The B Corp movement isn't just another standard. It's not simply an aspiration or a vision. It offers a systemic, concrete, market based and scalable solution to society's greatest challenges, passing laws, driving capital, and improving the quality of lives across the world. I discovered that the peacock standard brought together all the disparate social governance, community, environmental and employee standards that our company already subscribed to, and so much more. The B Corp standard made us look deep into our organisation and examine each and every aspect of our conduct in depth. We felt proud that we were already moving in the same direction as the B Corp movements. But being a part of the B Corp community and being able to protect the green element mission by embedding these principles into the company's DNA made it crystal clear to me that becoming a certified B Corp was the right move. Green element went through the three step process of becoming a certified B Corp. First, meet the performance requirement by scoring at least 80 points out of a possible 200. On the B impact assessment. seconds, meet the legal requirement by amending governing documents or adopting benefit Corp status. And third, make it official by signing the B Corp declaration of interdependence. As it turns out, being a force for good and increasing profits aren't mutually exclusive goals at all. Quite the reverse. Companies with social community and environmental responsibility at the core of our operations have achieved advantages in the marketplace. lower rates of attrition among employees and clients increased productivity and staff motivation and consequently increased profits, as well as making a positive difference in the lives of both stakeholders and the community. This is a new paradigm for capitalism. The economic system that's been the most successful in history globally need not implode because of its own excesses. Since becoming a certified B Corp. We've shared our knowledge and experience with fellow B Corp companies in the UK and further afield. And we've helped with the environment part of their certification process. We found that our clients are impressed that we are a B Corp and want to find out more. In this episode, we talked to three businesses about their B Corp journey, businesses that are keen to encourage other organisations to do the same. We'll talk to Karli Hiscock from Bates Wells, the first UK law firm to certify as a B Corp. And we gain insights from experienced B Corp and Sustainability Consultant, Carolina Miranda of Cultivating Capital. First up is James Thornton, the inspiring CEO of intrepid travel, who puts sustainability and purpose at the heart of the travel industry.

James Thornton 04:39
Intrepid is one of the world's kind of, I suppose, largest event travel companies. We really try and do two things as a business we try and operate fantastic sustainable experience rich travel which is which is kind of our kind of core focus if you like and then the second thing that we try and do is operated business that balance is having both a strong purpose but also delivering profitability. And hopefully proving a business case that you can be a for purpose business. But you can also be a sustainable kind of successful business that generates a profit for shareholders as well. And that an actually, the more good things to do in the purpose space model helps you grow. The more growth you do, the more that helps try and drive better purpose. So I've been lucky enough, I've been within trucking for 15 years kind of work my way through the business base in the UK originally, which is where I'm from Australia, back to the UK and then Australia for the last seven years. So yeah, super lucky. To get to lead Intrepid, we're a we're a certified B Corp, one of the few travel companies out there that is, it's been a challenging time for the travel industry, to say the least. What do you think the fallout from that is going to be? keep getting asked? Well, in a postcode environment, surely sustainability or drop off, and actually, you'll just go back to driving, you know, an economic model of having to get more passengers in like, I do keep trying to say that, actually, we find our sustainable business model a competitive advantage. And actually, it helps providers with competitive advantage that helps actually drive revenue and sales and in turn, then profitability. So you know, our sustainable business model is at the heart of the heart of what we do. Well, it's really why we entered B Corp certification two years ago, that was a three year journey for us to go on. And why we pursued that was because it's very easy in life to talk about how you grow a business or you operate certain products. But how do you prove that you have a sustainable model? How do you prove the you're fit for purpose business, and as Intrepid, we wanted to find something that wasn't necessarily industry specific, but kind of went right across functional through every aspect of our company and looked at the way in which we work with our people, the way in which we interact with our customers, the impact we have on the environment, the way in which we try and benefit our shareholders, and really went right through the journey. And that's what, and that's what drove us to perceive B Corp certification and took us three years to get to that point to to make it happen. So yeah, it's just a it's a good good kind of evaluation of our of our overall our overall business and what we're trying to achieve. And thinking about B Corp, specifically, how has that affected the way that you run your business, but the thing be called did for as well was, was changed the way it helped improve some of the things that we do in the organisation, so be called methodology essentially assesses you across 200 different touch points in your organisation. And it says it's really robust criteria and the modelling kind of you get, you know, naught point two, five points towards a certain a certain issue and, and so it highlighted to us, for example, that from a people perspective, we didn't have sufficient diversity in the leadership space. And that was often caused by the fact that we didn't have a maternity and paternity leave policy. So Beco methodology helped introduce for us the notion that actually if we had a maternity and paternity policy, that would help us retain more and more senior females in the organisation. And they in turn, would then not be dropping out of the work workplace when they were previously dropping out. And that helps us then address our diversity issues that we had. It's other things like having in Egypt, for example, we, we always negotiate with our suppliers. And often it might be a cooking school run by a female, yet the mayor would come in and negotiate the commercial arrangement of working with the cooking school. And we'd say, well, as you speak up, methodology rewards you for doing contracts directly with females and males in equal fashion. And so it prompted us to review our kind of ethical supply code in terms of the way in which we worked with some of our local people on the ground. So I know just it was lots of lots of small things that I think have helped make us a better business and a better business for the people that work with us. And the people that work for us, and hopefully, for our customers too. And it's this great thing you have to do you have to be reassessed every three years, and you have to, you know, meet certain credentials, and we kind of use as a benchmark to say, Well, every three years we want to try and improve by four or five points. And we get then compare it against every other vehicle out there in the in the market is three and a half 1000 vehicles around the world. Some are very big, you know, the body shops, the Patagonia's the world. Some are very, very small organisations, but we will we'll discuss kind of comparative scoring between us which is, which is Yes, pretty goodness. It's very transparent and hopefully gives customers and all our stakeholders are a good few of the things we do well, but also all the things that we don't do well and as any company doesn't sit doesn't do certain things, as well as it could and needs to improve and so it's been good for that, yeah, I think that's we've been a big enough since 2015. And what it brought to us was structure similar to yours. But it's interesting that you have brought in, it's how you've communicate with your suppliers in the separate countries, because that has such a powerful message that is then sent through to people don't it's just to at one point there, I think it's a really good thing as as I hope, you know, I'm sure you found and we've certainly found, there's lots of people with great intentions out there, you know, and there are lots of great companies trying to do lots of really good things. But unfortunately, there's also a degree of greenwashing that goes on as well, sadly, where things are just good marketing, unfortunately. And I think, you know, when, when you are when, as a consumer, you're out there trying to pick pick a company, and should I work with this company? Or should I buy this company's products? Or should I be employed by this company, trying to define the difference between good marketing and actually, what really is a business that is designed to be fee for good, is often hard to do. And we've certainly found that B Corp certification does, does help provide a point of distinction

Will Richardson 11:08
On that, so I'm kind of the I have not looked at it in massive detail, but kind of company per 100,000 or per 1000s people, I think Australia and New Zealand have more B Corps than any other country in the world, including the UK and the UK is fairly strong on B Corp. And I think I was looking at stuff the other day and thinking wow, that is a lot of B Corps in Australia and New Zealand's and it was up there with the UK and we know that there are more population. So do you see your customers picking you over others? Because there's more knowledge around B-Corp in Australia?

James Thornton 11:56
So I mean, firstly, 50% of our customers are Aussies and Kiwis 25% of Brits 25% Are Americans and Canadians. That's our kind of global split. You know, in Australia of the three out of the three and a half 1000 vehicles globally. 10% are in Australia in New Zealand. So is a disproportionate amount by head of population. To your question, Do people pick us as a direct result? I don't have any tangible results. Will that say yes, I can't. I can't sit here now and say because we are a B Corp. That then generated me an extra 20% of customers, I can't tell you that. All I can tell you is that in the last four, five years, we've been backing under the ownership of our founders and our staff, we have about 70 shareholders, so our two co founders and about 68 of our staff and our shareholders, which is fantastic. And we've pursued two things growing the market sustainable experience rich travel, operating a business that balances purpose and profitability. The more things we have done in the purpose space, the more that and we've talked about that the more that has helped us grow. And the more we grow, the more able to do good things for the purpose space. And we do believe that is cyclical and that has helped drive the 21% compound average growth rate that we've had over the course of the last four years. And the record level of profitability. We've had, you know, our our B core past sustainability issues, things that were involved in, they cost quite a bit of money, but we tangibly believe they help drive our growth better as an organisation and not just drive our growth better as an organisation, will they help us attract better people? And I really, you know, really well we do know this as one tangible thing. We are able to employ a higher quality of talent than we would not ordinarily be able to attract into our organisation because we are a certified B Corp. And particularly Millennials want to work for companies actually stand for something. So I think that's that's really helped us as an organisation. So no, it hasn't. I can't give you a metric sense driven customers outside of our results, which suggests it probably has, although indirectly, but it does help us attract talent into the organisation.

Will Richardson 14:10
Okay, that's interesting. Finally, James, can you pick one piece of advice that will help organisations with their corporate purpose?

James Thornton 14:20
I think I would say to find something you find something you really believe in when it comes to purpose. I think you quickly get found out if you're not genuine. Well, I think I get frustrated sometimes and you wait companies jump on the bandwagon or of every single thing that's going on. And so I think it's very important to pick the issues that are close to your heart close to your business means something to your customers into your employees, and then do as much research as you possibly can and set yourself some targets of what you want to achieve and then speak up about them and share about them. So I think it's it's just encouraging people to, to pick something they believe in, be robust around it, speak up about it, and not try and be something to everyone.

Will Richardson 15:16
You're listening to a special vehicle episode of the Sustainable Business Podcast. Now B Corp certification includes a legal requirements to formalise your company's alignment, the B Corp movements, values, and embeds a stakeholder focused mindset. UK law firm Bates Wells is a seasoned B Corp, and now helps others through the process. Karli Hiscock:

Karli Hiscock 15:38
We're a bit unusual really - we call ourselves a city firm with a difference. And we refer a lot to having a positive impact, which isn't something that most law firms probably outwardly say. But when we were established in 1970, there were a clear set of core principles that the firm was founded on. And it was could be basically sort of summarised as doing good work for good people. And inevitably, since 1970, we've evolved a lot. And we embedded a much more kind of outward looking set of values. And, and we live by our purpose and values. And when we're in the office together, we've got a lot of branding around our values around around the firm so that we can see them all and we remember them all. And as part of that journey, we became a vehicle in 2015. So that now embeds our values into what we do. And we really have a cut on we have a lot of synergy with our clients, and we have a lot of impact driven businesses. So that's kind of us in a nutshell. But we are a full service law firm with a twist.

Will Richardson 16:44
And do you think the fact that you're a B Corp has made any difference, you know, to you as a company as the people that work within it, and also how you work with clients?

Karli Hiscock 16:56
Yeah, I think it has. I mean, the timing worked brilliantly for me, because I joined the firm in 2014. So I could have been as a new person at the time, when we became a B Corp, I think I could really see that transition, that the firm I joined, was very enthusiastic, very purpose driven, very values driven. But by becoming a B Corp, it just brought it all to the forefront of everybody's mind. So everybody in the entire firm, you know, we've got 250 plus people in our firm, everybody started talking more regularly and more confidently about our values. So I think that made a real difference. And I think the accountability of being a vehicle also makes a real difference that you become a lot more conscious of always living by those values that you've promised to uphold. And then I think there was a huge amount of synergy as of several of our clients. So we asked for more charities and another law firm, but that, again, has evolved into social enterprises. And then because of the B Corp movement, we have a huge impact driven base now. And I think it makes a lot more difference than a lot of difference. I should say that we because we're a B Corp. And we do we are values driven firm, we're able to have those conversations with our clients and really understand what they're about. And there's a lot more synergy with our culture. So I think, although our day job is providing legal advice, it makes a huge amount of difference to be able to really understand what our clients do in their own businesses and what they're seeking to achieve.

Will Richardson 18:27
Do you think the advice you give clients changes is different if you're a purpose driven business or not?

Karli Hiscock 18:35
That's a really interesting question. Because I think I mean, ultimately, the law is the law. We're advising on the law. But I think we do tailor our advice differently to all of our clients, because there are other issues that affect them. In the same way that when we're giving advice to corporate bodies, that will be different to our charity clients, because the legislation is different. But I think for impact businesses, our advice probably does differ because we're focused on what their aims are, and how to help them get there. I suppose a recent example would be real estate law, we always have a bit of a joke in the department that the law doesn't really ever change for us, because we're still working on 19 25x and 1954. And actually, we don't think that the law has caught up sufficiently with impact driven businesses and actually the way the world is now and what people need. So we've had a look at our impact driven clients and real estate. And we've looked at putting together model form leases and President clauses and things. They're actually focused on those types of businesses so particularly majoring on the landlord and tenant relationship and how buildings should become more sustainable and how you can embed things into your lease to make that happen.

Will Richardson 19:53
I remember I first came across you guys years ago when we becoming a beacon back in 2015 and I was worried about changing our M&A, Memorandum of Association. I didn't know how to do it. And I spoke to someone in your firm. And they basically said, it's really easy. This is what you do, we couldn't possibly charge you for that. And they told us, I was like, Oh, that's amazing. What a cool firm. That's brilliant. And it was actually really easy.

Karli Hiscock 20:29
It's interesting, because I've had people say to me before, does it not change things for the worse in some, in some senses, you know, there's a lot of work involved and, and does not change your whole business. And I think, if your business is, is thinking about becoming a B Corp, and you're really already in that space, and you're already doing things in that way, and it's a lot of work, but it's worth it. And I think it's really motivating when it happens. But yeah, we're exactly what we support people on their peacock journey. And at the moment, we're doing quite a lot of work around the reassessment, and how can we support clients through that? And, and as you said, you know, we don't charge a fortune, sometimes not at all, when it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business.

Will Richardson 21:12
What would you say your biggest struggle so far have been? And can you tell us a bit about how you've overcome it.

Karli Hiscock 21:18
So on the ethical side, I think there was a challenge in terms of our business is providing legal advice, you know, we're not marketing a product, we're not manufacturing a product or marketing project, which product, which you can say, has a certain certification of this is ethical, this is ethically sourced, this is sustainable material. So I think a challenge for us as a law firm, is actually proving that we do live by these principles. And I think the B Corp status is fundamental to that. Because as you say, you have to change your governing documents to make sure that you do live by that. I think the other side of it is, sometimes you don't in terms of the ethical status, people could see a grey area that in terms of you know, what cases do you take on, which clients you might act for, but we have really rigorous processes in our firm to make sure that we have an ethics committee, you know, if there's anything that we think won't live by our standards, then we have to really rigorously assess it. If you could offer one piece of advice to our listeners that can help them with that purpose, what do you think that would be, um, I think be brave and have conviction in your purpose and kind of regularly take a step back. And remind yourself about what you are trying to achieve and why you first went into it. Because I think it's easy to kind of lose your way. And sometimes when you get bogged down in the day to day work, whatever your whatever your role is, and whatever your business is. So I think it's Yeah, reminding yourself what you want to achieve, and then being brave enough to keep saying it and keep reminding yourself and keep telling everyone about it. Otherwise, no one's going to know. I would say that, if an organisation is looking at really embedding a certain way of operating, but they don't want to maybe take a step next step of changing their articles, or if they're not in a position resource wise to do lots of different initiatives and in their business, then I think, just always focus on the small things, because inevitably, that evolves into something that's bigger. And I think, even in, you know, businesses with one person, you can remind yourself about your purpose and why you're doing what you're doing. And make sure you communicate it. I think communication is always the key. And then I think as businesses grow, always making sure that your people are on board, that you're bringing them along the journey and listening to their views. I don't think that it can be a kind of dictated mandate or most if this is the way we're doing it has to be genuine. If you are an impact driven business, then that has to be genuine. It has to be authentic and has to be carried through your people and everything they do. So yeah, I think that's, I think that's probably my takeaway piece of advice. Yeah, the other thing I was thinking of is the fact that because we're an alternative business structure, we don't have an lawyers working in the firm we have it's not traditional law firm structure of partners, solicitors, and then support staff were an ABS which enables to have other advisors in firm. So historically, we've had people focusing on compliance, we've to help clients with setting up financial businesses, financial services, we've had impact driven specialists and within our firm now we have impact professionals. So they're not they're not actually part of the legal teams, but they help us in making sure we understand the sector that we're working in, and they also provide a different kind of service to our clients, including the support with the B Corp reassessment that I think that accountability is really important. I think the B Corp movement is really interesting around that though, because I think What's brilliant about it is when you are working with an if you're a B Corp, and you're working with another B Corp, it takes that pressure off of worrying about whether or not you have that synergy. Because you already know you do you already know that you've each had to go through the same assessment criteria and make these changes to your governance documents. So you have that, that automatic accountability, right. Okay, we're on a level playing field here.

Will Richardson 25:33
Karli Hiscock there from Bates wells. Carly tells us they've been very active recently highlighting all things B Corp on the internet, and focusing on supplies and services. Cultivating capital has been certified B Corp since 2012. And their company's founder Carolina Miranda has been at the forefront of helping businesses to navigate B Corp certification and assessment. She works in the birthplace of B Corp, the USA. And here's how she sums up what the company is all about.

Carolina Miranda 26:04
My purpose is really to do what I can to help make the world a better place. And the way that I've chosen to do that is to help businesses to operate in ways that are just more socially and environmentally beneficial. Because I do think that business has a big role to play in the kind of world that we live in. When I started working as a sustainability consultant, about 10 years ago, I started to recognise that the larger corporations had the resources that they needed, not that they had all the answers, but they had the resources. And where I saw there was a gap was really with small businesses that didn't have the resources to hire, you know, Chief Sustainability Officer, and they just weren't sure exactly what to do. They knew they wanted to do something, but they weren't sure what to do. And so what I really started to focus in on was best practices for sustainability for small businesses, and really looking at what are the things that if all companies did this would really start to make a difference. And so my focus has really been on that it's it's been on, let's not reinvent the wheel. But let's not let you know, the perfect be the enemy of the good. But let's look at what are the best practices that already exist and bring those into organisations. And I'm a big supporter of the use of frameworks to be able to do that, because I think that third party frameworks are really helpful, particularly for small businesses, because they help them to identify where they're doing well, and what their opportunities are. And also it shows them things that they might not have thought about otherwise. And so the two frameworks that I've used are the B Impact Assessment, which is one that's used to certify as B corpse. And then because I am in California, there's also a California Green Business programme that is focused more on just the environmental component. But it does provide a pretty good framework. So that's, that's the long answer. Is that really, it's about sustainability practices for small businesses? Can you tell us a bit about how you engage your staff, suppliers and customers with your mission and purpose? Well, you know, I'm a small business owner, sole proprietor, I work with contractors. And so I would say that everybody who works with me knows very clearly what cultivating capital is all about. It's, it's on my website, it's who I am. And what I do, actually, contractors and interns seek me out, because they are attracted to the work that I'm doing as a B Corp and helping others to become the corpse. So I would say that really, it's, it's just a part of the way that that I operate. And certainly part of that means choosing to work with suppliers, who are also values aligned. So I always look first and foremost within the B Corp community, to find who is offering product or service that my clients are going to need. Because, you know, we need to support other purpose driven businesses. And I also work with a lot of women business owners. And so I do also work with a lot of women who you know, serve as suppliers, who are offering products and services that you know, that I need and that my clients need.

Will Richardson 29:46
And I think that's is the key to, I think, personally, the key to sustainability, full stop. I think that's the best thing that you can possibly do. Because I think we've all got strong skill sets everywhere. We've all got we all have our attributes and I think working with them and working alongside each other.

Carolina Miranda 30:05
Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that, especially since sustainability is such a broad field. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're, and you can go really deep into any area, like, obviously, you've gone really deep in terms of carbon footprint, and really understanding that. And there's people who really go deep on waste reduction, and we have zero waste specialists. And then there's people who go really deep on energy. And so you have people who understand the ins and outs of you know, how to optimise a track systems. And you know, you're basically moving into mechanical engineer territory. And then on the social side, there are areas that people can go very deep on as well, right? You have people who can go really deep and have expertise in terms of equity, diversity, and inclusion are people who really understand, you know, how to include social and environmental performance in HR departments.

Will Richardson 31:02
If you're listening to this, and you want to become more purpose driven, what are the first steps that you think someone should do? And how do you overcome? Maybe senior management aren't totally convinced on it? Or other? There are other barriers? And what barriers have you seen? And how have you? How have they, you know, been overcome?

Carolina Miranda 31:22
Well, you've just touched upon one of the biggest ones, which is basically lack of support from the CEO or senior management. When I've seen sustainability programmes run into roadblocks, it's really when they don't have that support from above, because that basically creates a bottleneck that limits the amount of resources that are available to employees to then develop their programme. So one of the things that I do when I work with clients on developing sustainability action plans, is actually taking a close look at you know, what is the level of support, you know, it has a CEO, really specified that sustainability is a priority and allocated resources, which is basically staff and budget, in order to do this, you know, has somebody at the senior management level been designated as the point person on the sustainability programme, so that you start actually looking not just at sustainability in terms of, you know, let's switch over to LED lights, and let's, you know, switch over to renewable energy, those things are obviously important, but those are, you know, individual projects that can be undertaken, they're not necessarily embedding sustainability, into a company culture, and creating a foundation to build upon. So. So that's, that's really important. Um, generally, what I'll tell people when they're saying, you know, we really want to do this, but we don't have the support from management is to start small. So I recommend starting a green team or a sustainability committee. You know, very few CEOs will say, you know, we're absolutely going to block our employees from, you know, forming a group like that. And then there are a lot of little things that every team can do, you know, sometimes it might be like switching over purchasing, or it might be like, you know, organising employees around for new alternatives. You know, those are important things, and they're good small steps for a team to take, if they don't yet have full management support, and then hopefully, they can start to, you know, build little by little and kind of raise awareness in the organisation and start to get more more support that they need to actually take on some more, you know, ambitious initiatives.

Will Richardson 33:55
Do you find that people are really driven by one person? Or is it a, you've mentioned Green Teams? Is it a collective of people? And, and are you finding that, and I don't want to say movement, because it sounds like a cult. And I used to joke that the B Corp was a cult when I first when we first became a because I don't know what it's like in the US, but it was very culty over here....in a good way, of course, we'll call but I guess as a cult, you're always gonna say it's in a good way. We just watch you. But do you feel that there's more of an appetite for it?

Carolina Miranda 34:37
Yeah, I'd say definitely, there's a lot more awareness and interest. And I think that people are at different points in their sustainability journey, but I'm seeing an increase at all levels. So at the early stage, what you see are businesses saying you know, we, we know we need to do something around sustainability. We're just not sure what. And so they will reach out to me. And that's generally generally when I'll help them with like a sustainability plan. Interestingly enough, most of those clients are kind of fitting a very specific profile. They're generally around two to 500 employees. And they are looking into developing their sustainability programme because they're hearing about it from their employees. So employees are saying, hey, what, what are we going to do around this? And management doesn't really have a good answer for that. And so they're looking into, okay, how do we begin to develop a sustainability programme and begin to actually develop a strategy around sustainability. I'm kind of farther along the spectrum. Our clients that I work with on B Corp certification, and so they're the ones that are generally they're all in, like sustainability, social impact, we know all of this is important, we want to take it to the next level, and we want to get certified as as a B Corp. And in those cases, there's a very high level of motivation, that I think is really being driven by the movement that the B Corp community is, is building, you know, worldwide. So a lot of people are really wanting to be a part of that movement. And a lot of people particularly in with consumer facing brands, they're recognising that consumers are recognising what the B Corp certification stands for. And so once consumers start looking for that, then the brands have a big incentive to actually start working on that too.

Will Richardson 36:47
And finally, Carolina, is there one piece of advice you'd be able to give people to help them on this journey?

Carolina Miranda 36:53
Yeah, I would say, you know, the biggest thing is really to think about what you want your company to stand for, you know, what, what is it that makes your company different and unique, then there's a lot of, you know, tools and resources and articles that kind of will guide you through figuring out your purpose, there's, you know, consultants who can help with that. But I think at the end of the day, most people want to do good, and most people want to feel good about what they're doing. And so to really be able to look and say, you know, are we are we doing everything that we can, are we acting in a way that is aligned with what I believe? You know, those are the questions that I think that, you know, CEOs and managers, you know, can be asking themselves, because employees are, are asking themselves that, you know, we know that employees want to work with places that align with their values. Certainly, there's a lot of data that shows that, you know, Generation Z and the millennials are all about purpose, although, as someone who is not Generation Z, I also believe that others are also, you know, driven by values and purpose. And so I think that having those asking those questions, and really being thoughtful and intentional about the answers can kind of free up some, some creativity and if somebody needs, you know, more of an incentive. You know, there's a lot of data out there that shows that obviously, consumers are being very intentional about the companies that they're choosing to support. And, yeah, and so I think that that's really what it comes down to.

Will Richardson 38:48
So lots of food for thought during begot month. Many thanks to my guests, James Thornton, Karli Hitscock, and Carolina Miranda. If you'd like more details about becoming a B Corp, and about this podcast, there'll be a link to those details and our webpage in the show description. You can also join our post podcast discussion to share ideas, views and comments Sustainability Solved. That's sustainabilitysolved.org. Now, thanks for listening to the Sustainable Business Podcast. I'm Will Richardson from Green Element and I'll see you next time.