Season 4, Episode 157 : Tom Gould

Will Richardson 00:02
Welcome to the Green Element podcast, where we discuss sustainability in business with innovators, market disruptors, and business leaders. In the process, we strive to help you on your sustainability journey by sharing insights and expertise from organizations from around the world. I'm your host, Will Richardson this week's episode has a slightly different focus to our usual podcast episodes. Today, we're interviewing Tom Gould, the Research Director and Head of Consumer at Impact Research. Impact is a market research agency committed to providing meaningful and sustainable futures. And in this podcast, we're going to be asking Tom about the changing attitudes of the public toward sustainability, and how brands are responding to this. Welcome, Tom. And thank you for joining us today.

Tom Gould 00:53
Thanks, Will, it's great to be here.

Will Richardson 00:56
Can I start by asking you to tell me more about what you do at impact?

Tom Gould 01:02
Yeah, sure. So well, as you mentioned, I'm a Research Director, and I head up the consumer team. So I will talk to clients who have many business challenge, and look to understand what they're trying to find out. And then design research studies to gather views and opinions from their, from their customers, to help them improve their services. A big part of what we do, though, is focus on sustainability. And so impact has been around for about 11 years now. And pretty much from the moment we started back in 2010. And sustainability has been a focus of many of our clients. And that's just grown over time, we've had an increasing number of research briefs come in talking about sustainability, and really wanting to understand what consumers are thinking and expecting, because pressure is growing on businesses to act sustainably. And consumers are a lot more switched on as well. They really know. A lot of them know what's going on. And they understand it, they have a really good understanding and know what businesses should be doing. And as I say, have those increasing expectations.

Will Richardson 02:25
It sounds like the coolest of jobs. I guess I'm assuming all of you, all of you guys that Impact Research are interested, if not, like really interested in sustainability as a whole?

Tom Gould 02:38
Yeah, definitely. I think we're all at different journeys. But that's quite nice, actually. And so actually, as part, so we've been running a study impact sustainability study. And as part of that, we've identified different groups of consumers based on their attitudes to sustainability. And we couldn't help ourselves, we had to test it out on the company. And it was very clear that we were all at very different journeys. You had some who were still very much reading up on it, and really understanding what can they do to make a difference, all the way through to those much more active participants, those who are really taking that step forward. So you know, they were had EVs looking at solar panels or solar energy, you know, even those smaller differences around like reusable coffee cups, refillable water bottles, but then also taking it that step further and going to kind of protests and marches to really try and make a more a bigger change and more governmental change. But we absolutely love it.

Will Richardson 03:49
Yeah I know, I bet. And how is the public perception of sustainability fed back to brands?

Tom Gould 03:58
We collect lots of data around consumer attitudes, their behaviors, but also around kind of what's influencing their behaviors and their attitudes. So is it the government? Is it TV documentaries? Is it David Attenborough, or Greta Thunberg? All these different factors which might be influencing their decisions. We also collect data on the perceptions of different brands and retailers. So which brands and retailers do the public think are really great at sustainability? And which do they think and not so great, and we're able to relay that back to our clients and they're able to then understand where they they sit versus their competitors? And what are they doing particularly well on? What are they not doing so well on versus their competitors? And looking at that, not just within their own direct competitor set, but actually what's really powerful is they can look at it by other sectors, so you know, the supermarket can look at it against fashion retailers, or online retailers, or you can have your crisps brands, but also understanding how they compare versus breads and cereals. So it's a huge study which we're doing. And when we relay the information back, they are using it to take action. And that's what's really great, and knowing that our data is leading to those sorts of changes.

Will Richardson 05:25
Brilliant, and it's all a part of the whole big picture, isn't it? Now, I want to ask you a question that you probably won't answer: which brands are the ones that are the best and which what brands are perceived as the worst? [laughs]

Tom Gould 05:41
[laughs] Well, we've got to bear in mind, this is all about perceptions. So it's not actually about what they're doing. But it probably won't surprise you. So the study itself covers the major brands, the major retailers, so obviously, there's lots of small startup companies who are doing great things out there in the world sustainability. But for the purposes of the study, we've really focused on the major ones, your everyday brands that you see in the supermarket. So in terms of the top brands, it won't surprise you to hear that the likes of Ecover, Method, all score particularly well. So actually, just to take a step back, what we've created is a sustainability score out of 100. And what we basically do is ask consumers to rate a great number of brands and retailers on four aspects. So on being environmentally friendly, financially responsible, socially responsible and ethical. And we're able to take those ratings and aggregate it into this score of 100. And so we've got a league table of every brand and retailer we have 162 currently in the study. And number one, as I say is Ecover. So obviously, they've got eco in their name, it sits well with, with consumers just straight away. And they've done a big campaign around Laundry against Refill.

Will Richardson 07:10
Which interestingly, because Method are a part of the same brand as Ecover. And they have silently taken their B Corp certification away. So they're no longer a B Corp, they were bought by another company. I don't know what the other company is. I found out that the other day, which I thought was really interesting, and it's actually 'eek' with everyone understanding more about B corps, and then what you've just told me that it almost adds another layer of complexity, which is quite interesting.

Tom Gould 07:40
I think they can, it sounds terrible, they can get away with it A) because their branding and their core values, but B) I still think the general public still don't have a great understanding of what B Corp is. And so you know, it could say B Corp, it might not say B Corp to the average consumer, they probably won't really know what that is and what that means. So yeah, they can unfortunately get away with these sorts of things. I also the likes of other brands, like Rude Health and have done particularly well Oatly, even though there was the controversy earlier this year, they do particularly well. And it's these young brands, these brands who you know, if you look at their packaging, they're talking about sustainability all over and it's kind of in a fun, exciting way it doesn't feel too formal, you know, I think only says this is the boring side, which you know, adds a bit of humor to the situation makes you want to read it actually. So they score particularly well. If we go to the other end of the scale, so those that are not performing so well, are is some of our like crisps brands, like McCoy's doesn't do particularly well. Yeah, Doritoes. And then we have Listerine as well features quite low as well, I think it's that some of these brands they've got -. So crisps is always going to be a challenging category to do well in terms of perceptions, because straightaway, you've got the health perception kicking in. But also packaging. And this is a massive, massive factor for the consumer because it's something that's physical, they can see it, it's tangible. And crisp packets are one of those things that you just assume you can just you can't recycle, you just have to throw it in the bin. And immediately people are quite unhappy with that. And also, there's always this perception that there's too much packaging for what you actually get with a bag of crisps. You always open up a bag and half of it's half full or half empty, depending which way you want to look at it. So they don't yeah, those brands aren't scoring as well at the moment. I think with Listerine it's linked to the color. If people don't know exactly what you do in terms of sustainability, they'll hook on to something else. And with Listerine, it's probably the color of the liquid because it's a see-through bottle. So they see the liquid and they go: "wait, why is that was green that can't be good to put in my body or purple". So they'll hook onto something else. We did some qualitative work for, as part of this, we did some focus groups, and we actually asked about Vanish. And the people who didn't know anything about Vanish, kind of immediately said: "Well, it's a pink bottle. That's very artificial. There's nothing natural about that. So they can't be good for the environment". So it's really interesting, the sorts of things that people have gone to make that judgment of a brand.

Will Richardson 10:47
So you're right, it is actually perception - and that's probably - let's keep that because actually, with what you've just said about Listerine, it's not fair on Listerine, because actually, that's perception, not actual. And I can see why you're happy talking about it now, because it's not your opinion. It's what other people are actually saying about it, potentially, for the wrong reasons. We don't know what's actually in Listerine, do we? So it could be the most environmentally friendly mouthwash out there. But perception wise, it seems not.

Tom Gould 11:21
Yeah, exactly. And, but perception is a huge thing because if the public doesn't like your brand, for some reason, they are unlikely to go out there and buy it. And we know that sustainability is becoming more important in people's purchase decisions. So they brands need to be thinking about sustainability, and they need to be putting their sustainability strategies in place, creating their commitments, actually taking action, communicating that if they're not, the public will pick up on it. And they will eventually kind of abandon your brand. I think what we're, you know, where we're seeing some big change at the moment is in soft drinks, there's more pressure on sustainability. So we we track the importance of sustainability and purchase decisions. Over time, we've been running this survey now for two years. And we have seen over time, the importance of sustainability increase in the soft drinks category.

Will Richardson 12:23
I was going to ask you about how consumer attitudes have changed in the last 10 years?

Tom Gould 12:28
Yeah, so it's interesting because, at least in our study, the last couple of years, the attitudes have stayed relatively similar, at personal level. So they still are saying, Yep, sustainability is important, we should be doing this. And their behaviors have also stayed relatively flat for the last two years. So there's, there's no - we're not seeing refillable coffee cups on the rise, or at least not in this survey. But where we are seeing change is the pressure they're putting on brands and retailers to act. So say we're in the soft drinks industry, I think it's around a 40% increase in the prep in the importance of sustainability in buying a soft drink. So they want to know that the brand is now being more sustainable in some way. Fashion, as well, fashion has seen the biggest increase across our whole survey in terms of sustainability. I think a big part of that is the media and the public will follow what the media reports on. And so the increasing headlines around fast fashion, people wear clothes once and then throw them away and they go straight into landfill. Those sorts of headlines are now reaching consumers. They're seeing them on a regular basis. And hence they're now putting more importance on sustainability and putting more pressure on fashion brands to act sustainably.

Will Richardson 13:58
Yeah. How is public opinion changing the operations and or products of brands and services?

Tom Gould 14:06
Yeah, so a number of it's interesting, because we've spoken as part of this survey, we've obviously been reaching out to a number of clients on this and for we've been in now 50-60 different client meetings discussing this. And they all come up with the same thing, the same thing, which is, but we are sustained, we're doing we're doing something sustainable. It's just they're not communicating it and they're not telling customers it. So we are seeing clients come to us with new products that they want to launch that are what they claim to be more sustainable. So it's using real recycled plastic, rather than any single use. And we've been testing those sorts of products out to see what appeal there is and how much people are willing to pay for this product. Are they willing to pay more for sustainability? The answer is generally no. And so we're seeing them, build it into their innovation pipelines, knowing they need to have more of these products out on the shelf. We've had some working with businesses, because so we've worked with a electricity distributor. And I think the local authority, and they wanted to help SMEs reduce their carbon emissions. And so we've done some research around that to understand kind of what are the needs what these businesses understand, don't understand. And off the back of that a portal has now been created for SMEs to access and they can now look at all of the advice for them in terms of how can we reduce carbon emissions? So they kind of are filtering in. Some are using the results more for PR. So, for instance, they're battling myths that are out there about their their sector, and they're saying: "No, we've got data to back up that this isn't the case".

Will Richardson 16:10
That leads me nicely on to my next question. But before I ask it, just going back to what you just were talking about earlier on, we had Reckitt on [the podcast]. They are quite a large, you know, you know who they are consumer brands. And what surprised me, was what you just said, the stuff that they put in their different bottles and things is actually not bad. It's actually not bad for the environment. And it is quite sustainable. But it's that they're not communicating about it. And I think that's what I got from that podcast was, "wow", because I was a bit like like: "why have we got Reckitt on? They're not known as a sustainability brand". But actually, when I speak to them, and I we were asking them questions about what was actually in their products, and the process that they went through in order to make the products absolutely should be talking to us. They are within the environmental and sustainability portfolio as industries and so I don't know, I just, it's just interesting. Is that communications, isn't it?

Tom Gould 17:24
Yeah, it really is about communications, I think Reckitt are really interesting because I think they've switched in the last six months, they've gone through a bit of a rebrand. And they've really focused on their brand purpose. And now if you look at any of their products, there's there's a purpose to it. And it's for instance, Finish, it's all about reducing water waste. In in Vanish, it's about making your clothes live longer. So they're really focusing on that messaging and focusing on the sustainability side. But yeah, it's just about effective communication, the end. And at the end of the day, there's so many messages out there about sustainability. And it can get very hard for the average person to absorb all of that and and also remember it and remember a case of who was it that said that they are now 100% recycled plastic. And so what they'll sometimes do is just generalize and go: "well, if that brand is doing it, then probably all the other competitors are also doing it".

Will Richardson 18:30
Well, that was the other thing that I got from it was they did say, to be honest with you, the core ingredients are pretty similar in all the brands. And it's possibly why they've there's never been any messaging around it because they are greenwashing and they're kind of like, well, actually, we're doing the right things. Let's just get on with our day job and carry on doing it. Because greenwashing is a major concern, and there's a genuine threat to the environment. And my concern is that public perception isn't always a reflection of what actually is sustainable. So how to black brands you work with respond to this dilemma?

Tom Gould 19:07
Yeah so, it's it is a challenge, I think. And so we know that about a third of people generally don't believe the environmental claims that brands make. At least a third. About half of them feel that the claims are overused. So it's not looking good. But it's really about, there's kind of a few kind of rules, I would say when making claims is first of all, just be honest. That's a really obvious one, but one that we should say at the very beginning, be open and honest. And also don't come across - I don't know the right word but - preachy? So don't come across like you're the absolute best and you're absolutely amazing, I think a good part of honesty is saying: "look, we know we're still got a lot to do. But we are making steps towards becoming a more sustainable brand". And keeping the claims focused as well. So you don't want to have 20 - 30 different messages, just keep to the one or two key claims you want to make because again, it comes across as if you're just trying to cover all bases just to please people. But actually, if you just say: "yeah, my packaging, our packaging is 100% recyclable. And we're using reusing renewable energy". Just those two claims. And just having those two claims home are a lot more powerful than trying to talk about 20 claims. And especially if you think about a retail context, in a shop, if you go into your supermarket, you've got claims everywhere. So you really do want to make sure that you're not overwhelming the public with your claims. And the other big thing is just about backing up the claims. So again, people will feel much more comfortable and believe you if they can actually see that the claim you're making is that. So again, if you're going to claim that I don't know your packaging is recyclable, make sure that it's clear that it is recyclable. We know for instance, that about three quarters of people, I think it's 72% of people feel that brands should be doing more, should be telling them - . Making it clearer, sorry, making it clearer how to dispose of the packaging, which is a huge number. They clearly don't feel brands are doing enough in that regard, communicating those sorts of things. So yeah, just backing up claims. And then I guess the final thing, sorry, I'm just throwing everything out there. But it's about talking about the present. Don't always talk about the future. So talk about what you're doing now because there's a lot of skepticism, if you say: "oh, we're going to be doing this by 2030". People think that you're not going to do anything until 2028 2029. Yeah. So they're thinking, Okay, so you've given yourself seven years of rest, and then you'll start working on it. So there's, there's a real skepticism around the language that is used, even the word committed can kind of annoy people because they think: "okay, well, you're committed, it doesn't mean you're doing it". So that's where our research really comes in because we're able to pick up those intricacies in the language used and kind of what, what brands should be saying and how they should be saying it?

Will Richardson 22:45
Do you think brands have a responsibility to educate their customers on what is sustainable?

Tom Gould 22:52
And I think definitely. I think everyone has a responsibility in some way. And so I think the public will put more pressure on the government. So we know that 70% of consumers think that the government are more responsible for this sort of thing. And the manufacturers also play a huge role. And so that is, again, going back to that point I made earlier, they need to have clear messaging on pack. And explaining - plastic is a massive thing at the moment and plastic has become the villain of the environment. And that's largely because of all these documentaries and all of the media coverage it gets. And we've actually found about 75% of people think that plastic should be banned. Which the reality is, you can't ban plastic.

Will Richardson 23:53
No, it'd be the most unenvironmental thing to do as well, if you actually look at the environmental impact of that.

Tom Gould 23:59
But that's the impact that the media has. So the media will be a big, big, big part of the education. But what was quite interesting was we then tested out different types of plastic. So we actually said to them, okay, so think about single use plastic, PET, rPET, and a couple of others. And we said, okay, how acceptable are these types of plastics to you? And actually, the plastic that was the most unacceptable, as you'd expect, is single use plastic. But then all of the other types of plastic, there was so much more openness to it, they were quite keen, they say: "yeah, this is absolutely acceptable to use". But if we then go back to that previous stat, which is 70% thinks that plastics should be banned. It really shows this massive gap in knowledge, and they just don't understand these different types of plastics. I mean, the biggest the other challenge I mean, single use plastic is, is perceived as unacceptable. The other plastic it's kind of like the soft plastics that you get on bread packaging or crisp packets or anything like that. Those are also plastics which they are verging on saying is unacceptable. But that's partly because A) they're unaware that you can recycle them, you just have to return them to the store. But if they are aware of that, it's the inconvenience of then having to return that packaging to the store. And there's a lot of, you know, not all supermarkets are doing at the moment. I know, Co-op have definitely rolled this out across their stores, where they've got the bins in store for customers to return soft plastics. But it's not as ideal as being able to just put the plastic in a bin at home.

Will Richardson 25:49
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's working with the council and Wrap. Wrap, if you're listening, listen to this, you're speaking to it, you're listening to an expert. In your experience, do brands respond and adapt their products according to the public perception? Or do they research and then adapt their product?

Tom Gould 26:10
Yeah, no, definitely. So we've done a number of product tests where we give people the products and they'll take it home and test it out. And then they'll give us their feedback and we know a number of clients have then taken that feedback and adapted the product accordingly. Similarly, with packaging, we've done a few packages, we've done a number of pack tests, as we call them, where we just test out not just the visuals, but the materials the size, and just to see what people like what they dislike. And brands do take that feedback. And they do apply it. And sometimes we will go through three, four waves of research to get to the optimum product or the optimum packaging. And, of course, there's the odd client who's already got it set in their mind. This is my product, I'm just going to do research as a tick box. But most clients are very receptive to change. And they have to be because ultimately, they want to sell their product. And if they don't listen to the consumer, they're not going to then end up buying the product, because it's not meeting consumer needs.

Will Richardson 27:28
Have you noticed any other interesting trends from public perception about sustainability emerging?

Tom Gould 27:35
Yes, so it's quite interesting. I think COVID has had some impact. And so I think at peak COVID, everyone was a bit more sustainability focused, and they had a bit more time. So I'd say this is April last year. So this was the first lockdown, people had a bit more time to maybe reflect on behaviors, actually put the effort in to becoming a bit more sustainable. But as time has gone on, and we've seen lockdown restrictions relax, we've seen those behaviors start to drop a little more. And suggesting that now they're kind of returning back to their normal in the loosest sense of the word normal lives, and they're becoming busier again, sustainability is starting to become slightly less of a priority in in their everyday lives. And so actually, as I mentioned earlier, we have these four segments that we identified. And what we saw was, in April, a real peak in the number of people in the more active segments, but then as time has gone on, those have shifted to the more inactive segments. And so I think the COVID effect - sorry, the pandemic has had quite an impact on people's behaviors. In terms of perceptions, the one thing we also saw with the pandemic was a real jump in positivity for supermarkets. So in April last year, they were all they all scored so so highly on our sustainability score. And that was really closely linked to them caring for customers, caring for staff, it was putting those measures in place. And I think the public really appreciated the fact that the supermarkets were still open, essentially supporting them through the lockdown. But then as time has gone on, we've seen that positivity again start to decline. So it's quite interesting, and we've got the next wave of our study coming actually next month, so it'll be interesting to see if it's declined further.

Will Richardson 29:59
How do you like to see brands implement the research that you conduct?

Tom Gould 30:06
Well, I'd like them to like to see them use all of it as much as possible, to be honest. I mean, it really does depend on clients and what they're looking to achieve. But you don't want to, you know, there's such a huge wealth of data in there. And we can apply it to so many different brands, so many different categories and sectors. And it's really valuable data. It's so important to understand your customer, and what their needs are and what their expectations are, if you don't meet those expectations, and you don't meet those needs, you're going to lose them. So you really need to keep on top of what your customer wants, and their customer views do change. All it takes is the media to start reporting something really bad again, you know, something beyond plastic, and it will change their views immediately. And so brands need to start responding almost have to be responding to what the media is reporting, because that is going to influence their customer views. So the survey itself, we have a number of clients who have bought into our study, and they're able to influence it, and they're able to add in their own questions. And those questions will be key business questions to them. Because a lot of these brands, as I've said, they've got strategies in place, they just don't really know where to start with the communication. And we're working with one, for instance, who have their 10 commitments. But they've agreed, they say: "we can't talk about all 10 at the same time". So the research has been focusing on, okay, which ones, which commitment should they prioritize in their communications, and then how to communicate it. And it was quite interesting the findings, because there were two commitments they needed to really prioritize for their in-store communications, but then two which they could then prioritize for their online communications. So some really powerful insights there, which they probably wouldn't have got, have they not joined our study.

Will Richardson 32:19
So interesting talking to you, I probably should have said at the beginning of my undergraduate thesis was how people perceive the effects they have on the environment whilst partaking in sports within the Cairngorm region. And I mean, that bearing in mind, I was 20 years old when I did that. So yeah, talking to you today has been, it's been really, really interesting.

Tom Gould 32:42
Bringing back memories.

Will Richardson 32:43
I just - for me, back then, I was clearly interested in sustainability in the environment. But I knew that there was a disconnect between the actual environmental impact and people's perception. And you're, it's, you know, you're cementing it, you know, it's still there. Because in that instance, skiing, actually, if it's been designed, a ski resorts been designed properly, which a lot of the new ones are, can, if you were to take them away, within 10 years, you wouldn't even know that they existed. And so they're not that bad. Obviously, the ones that were built in the late 1800s, early 1900s, generally the European ones as well, because they're older, are much worse. And they'll take 100 to 200 years to go back to where they were, but the North American ones are very, very good. And it's mountain biking, horse riding, all that stuff as well comes into it.

Tom Gould 33:42
Yeah, and I think that's something with consumers that they have this one perception about something, but it can be so different to the reality. And so I think is you mentioned earlier, the education and just making them realize that this is a really green product, or even like a green town. It's really powerful, and really important to do. The education piece, it is a really important bit. It's interesting, because, as I mentioned previously, we've got these segments, and we've got one segment who we call the inactive skeptics, the people who really can't be bothered with anything and don't care. But actually, the bit, we've then split that out into three subgroups. And we've identified the majority of that group of people who are quite ambivalent, they just don't really know what to do, they're lost. So just by holding their hand a bit more, and educating them and helping them in their sustainability journey can just make such a huge difference.

Will Richardson 34:49
No, absolutely. Tom, thank you so much for joining us today.

Tom Gould 34:53
Now, it's been a pleasure, really enjoyed talking to you, Will.

Will Richardson 34:56
And thank you for listening to the Green Element podcast. Please do join us on our post podcast discussion in our online community at sustainabilitysolved.org