Season 5, Episode 171 : Taking Trees Out of the Paper Supply Chain

Will Richardson 00:11

Hi, and welcome to another episode of Sustainability Solved - The Sustainable Business Podcast. I'm Will Richardson. Today we talk about a product that we all use in our businesses, no matter their size or speciality. Paper. The term paperless office was first used in the 1970s, but an increase in personal computing and desktop printers actually led to a steep rise in paper consumption in the 1980s and 1990s. Paper use in office is now dropping, but in the UK, we still use 9.9 million tonnes of every year and although we do use some recycled paper, every tonne of fresh pulp requires the felling of 24 trees. But what if we remove trees from the production process entirely? This is what Red Inc a sustainable office supplies company is aiming to do by teaming up with Envopap, who produce the world's first eco friendly and commercially viable pulp free paper. Now, Adam Huttly, the founder of Red Inc is with me today. And those that have been listening since the beginning may remember we had Adam on back in July 2018. It was actually Episode Two. Amazing! Both of our businesses were B Corps quite early on. How times have changed. And how many more B Corps are there now? Hi, Adam. Let's start by talking a bit about Red Inc. You set it up in 2008. What was your motivation to do this?

Adam Huttly 01:51

Yeah, thanks. Well, good to be back after so many years a? Crazy, I almost can't believe it. I mean, we're talking about 2008. We've been on a long journey together, haven't we? But that seems like a different life. And I think when you look at where we are in the world, you could never imagined I think back in 2008, looking forward where we'd be. It's great to be back on after many years. And thanks for having us. So for anyone that doesn't know us and didn't listen to episode two, which they probably didn't.

Will Richardson 02:16

Probably didn't, everyone, we just got new listeners. That's all that's all.

Adam Huttly 02:25

Red Inc is an office supplies company. I set the company up in 2008. And I think in a sort of nutshell, if I can do that, the idea was, how do we change things, it was all about change for the future. The industry we were in had sort of stood still, I think it was very much based on this pi;e it high, sell it cheap model, which I harp on about I know continually, which I think you know, if you look back in the 80s was probably fine. But it definitely wasn't where I wanted to be, you know, we wanted fulfillment. And we wanted to progress. And I think it was that spanner in the works, how can we stop? And how can we do things better. And that was our real aim. I think the industry was full of waste. In terms of logistics transport, and there was a really big avoidance around, you know, some of the more general things in office supplies about where the products come from, you know, what the products are made up from? How can we be more efficient in terms of logistics? And how can we innovate, the problem being of course, you can't innovate, when you're in a race to the bottom price model. That was the problem that the industry had, I was absolutely passionate and absolutely sure that there was a better way of doing it. And some of that was to move away from being a transactional kind of company and move into this almost consultancy, how do we add value as a supplier to our clients? Ultimately, we wanted to rewrite the script. So start from scratch, take everything that was supposed to be a part of this business model, rewrite the rules and create a low impact business that was designed to innovate, create value and make a positive difference. I won't harp on about the minutiae of what we do. But I think some of this in a more kind of holistic way was about having new and honest conversations with clients that seemed to be really missing in our business. You know, it was very much transactional smoke and mirrors. Whereas we thought, well, let's go and talk to our clients. Let's talk to them about the real issues were facing both in terms of cost and logistics and pricing. And that attracted a different type of client. And that was really, really refreshing. So we looked at 2008 as an opportunity to have no baggage. We started the company literally in an office room in Brighton. We had no clients time to draw a line under anything because we weren't carrying any baggage. And we set out to be on this kind of mission to do

Will Richardson 04:47

did the the fact that financial crash was happening exactly the same time did that impact your stance?

Adam Huttly 04:54

Yeah, I think I think you probably did I mean 2008 I think what it did is it definitely, cause so much focus was about cost then. And by being more efficient, you can be more efficient in terms of cost as well. So our model was designed to make clients more efficient by, you know, stopping them from ordering next day, buying less products, buying, you know, better products, etc, etc. And I think it helped in delivering a low cost model. However, for many years, and I know you share my frustrations, we were a bit in the doldrums on the kind of green agenda and sustainability agenda. Because, you know, that had just driven everything back down to a price a price model, because, you know, companies were struggling, weren't they? I mean, it was like, you know, like, COVID, 2008, COVID. You know, it was disrupting, you know,

Will Richardson 05:46

Do you have a typical client? And if so, what are they like? And what are their reasons for choosing a sustainable office equipment supplier?

Adam Huttly 05:56

Well, I think our client base is probably more diverse than it's ever been, we look after many purpose driven businesses. And like you, we've been in the mix of B Corps since 2016 2017. So we've forged some really good relationships with with many B Corps. And that makes up a fairly good proportion of our business, but worked with some really incredible businesses as well. So the WWF, the World Wildlife Fund for Nature, and people, they one of our clients, and I think, you know, they have a very stringent tender process, we've just been re awarded the contract that we held for three years, and we look at that as a badge of honor, you know, greater company is there to work for than someone like the WWF. Knowing that, you know, we've got what it takes to win a tender for them. But I think also, in the last two years, we've seen exponential growth from corporates. And that's because these big corporates, now we're looking for companies in their supply chain that understand net zero, are aligned with the SBTI, for example, that actually fit, you know, it's no good having an out of date business model in your supply chain, if you're going to try very hard to change what you're doing and align your business with net zero. And of course, you know, better than anyone, well, you know, the challenges in scope freeze, we need to be able to understand those challenges. And we need to better help clients and be a value to them not sit there as a company that doesn't even understand their own carbon reporting, let alone helping their clients understand. So yeah, a diverse client base. I think, today more than ever, we're consultancies. We are more of a consultant, we certainly never wanted to be this sort of traditional transactional stationery company.

Will Richardson 07:30

Brilliant, brilliant. This, and I can't help but mention the elephant in the room. largely because, you know, your business is probably one of the ones that were more affected by COVID. And the fact that people weren't going into offices. We weren't traveling. So the travel industry, and you know, you guys, and so how did it hit you? Like, what, what happened? And the fact that you came through the other side by the sounds of it stronger, more robust, his absolute credit to you and your business...

Adam Huttly 08:07

Yeah, thanks. I mean, yes, it's it's hard to believe that ever happened really COVID stopped the office products industry in its tracks. And being a pile it high sell it cheap business model is disastrous when the business drops off. Because it's just volume based, you know, we talk about sustainability. And we kind of wrap it up as the green agenda. But actually sustainability is about having more than just a green agenda, isn't it sustainability and businesses, how you see through to the future, how we survive, how we embrace change, how we embrace the challenges we've got ahead of us. And I think, because we were never that transactional type of stationery company, we had intimate relationships with our clients. It enabled us to just change what we were doing for a short term. Being small and being agile is absolutely key, isn't it? We weren't stuck in this big dinosaur, one that has to keep chucking more sales in to keep going, you know, we had a really good solid business. And we were very lucky as well, because we won a couple of really big accounts pre COVID. And what they did is they kind of filled that void. So whilst the industry struggled, and we are still in the COVID hangover, in the office supplies, well, there's no doubt about that. We saw it through and we came out the other side, as you said, much stronger in a way, but also actually we've had exponential growth as well, which I think is sort of almost unheard of in our in our sector at the moment. Most people are sort of grappling around to survive. We've actually found that exponential growth because of our business model. That was what we what we planned and worked hard on for 14 years. You know, when people didn't need it. We kept going,

Will Richardson 09:47

that just goes to show that you were barking up the right tree, doesn't it

Adam Huttly 09:53

When I reflect sometimes I didn't think we were and I wonder where that ever you know, people will never get get what we were really trying to achieve But fortunately, the world has changed, hasn't it? And you and I both see a better world than we saw in two or three years ago, perhaps.

Will Richardson 10:07

And excitingly, you are bringing EnvoCOPY to the UK. How did you first hear about the product?

Adam Huttly 10:14

Yeah, so EnvoPAP are an amazing company, we found them back in 2019, actually, so just pre COVID, we were looking around as we always do for better clients. A big part of our remit and responsibility for our clients is to help them buy better products, bring awareness around new products to them, and work tirelessly to make it better for them. And as a part of this kind of quest to look for better products all the time, I came across Envopap, and as a part of their range, they had a paper, which is called Envocopy. So we got very excited instantly about it, you know, their products and their stories aligned with us, their vision seemed just in parallel with the kind of companies we want to work with and then with a bit of further digging, we found out they were a B Corp as well. So it was a it was like a match made in heaven. Kaushal Shah, the CEO there isan exceptional guy, and he's got a brilliant team. And this is innovation at its greatest, really. So we started talking back in 2019. Sadly, those talks dropped off a little bit, because obviously, everyone packed up their desks and went home COVID here, and the world changed completely in terms of office products. And it became a bit of a survival game really, but kept in touch. And then as momentum started building as the world started to recover in some shape 2022 We got together again, really worked hard over about three or four months to get this deal going to the point now where we've had our first shipments in and of actively selling the paper now.

Will Richardson 11:43

Brilliant, brilliant. And can you explain to us what EnvoCOPY is and how it's made?

Adam Huttly 11:49

Yeah, so EnvoCOPY is basically in a nutshell. Now make sure I get this right, because otherwise, the guys that EnvoPAP won't be very happy. But basically, it's a paper created using a reclaimed waste product called bagasse, which is a byproduct of sugarcane farming, a better way of phrasing it would be sugar cane pulp. So what EnvoPAP have done is they've taken this kind of byproducts that would normally be burned, or put in landfill, and then the turning that into the pulp, which will be the equivalent to the wood pulp to make the paper.

Will Richardson 12:23

Brilliant. Yeah, that's pretty simple.

Adam Huttly 12:25

Yeah, it's about it sounds it, doesn't it? I mean, yeah, they came up with it, their brains?

Will Richardson 12:30

That's awesome. Yeah. What are the advantages of, of EnvoCOPY over the conventional recycled paper,

Adam Huttly 12:38

their main advantage would be that you're not reliant on paper. So, you know, from in terms of a sheet of paper, there's not huge differences. A lot of the advantage with this is where it's come from behind the scenes. And I think, if you're looking at products, and as consumers are changing their opinion on products, a lot of people are now saying, you know, they're looking at how products come and our products generated or produced from deforestation, which is obviously becoming a bit of a no, no. So I think one of the best advantages of this is that you're using a raw waste product. And it's not reliant on tree pulp in any shape or form. Behind that, EnvoPAP, ensuring that the farmers are paid a proper wage, and they're paid for this waste that would typically be in burn.

Will Richardson 13:28

So they're probably making more money, they're probably making more money from it from as well. Perfect.

Adam Huttly 13:32

Yeah, I'd say yeah. And then if you go into the sort of nitty gritty of it, the actual carbon produced in the whole production of it is a lot less than if you're producing virgin white paper, and even recycled, because as you know, you've got that two sides of every story around paper do you use virgin pulp would you use recycled and the production and the energy intensity in recycled paper is a lot lot higher, even though the product has its own benefits. And I think what EnvoPAP does so well as it sits right in between both in terms of usage and color, and suitability. But if you can compare a 16% carbon saving against 100% recycled paper, then that's a huge saving in terms of production carbon. And so those advantages aren't necessarily in the sheet of paper on your desk, although there are some, it's more about how this is produced and the processes behind it.

Will Richardson 14:25

Brilliant, brilliant. And so what does the end product look like? Some recycled paper has bits in it, and it's not white is the same?

Adam Huttly 14:35

Yeah, I mean, I suppose you know, it's not high, bright white paper. So for years, I think we started a campaign back in 2016 2017, which we call Fight Bright White. And that campaign was to bring awareness to clients that were insisting on using this high bulk, really bright paper. We wanted to try and change that kind of mindset and that historic 'we can only use that paper because that's how we want our business image to be portrayed' Because there's no need for it. But those days are gone. You know, it's not the 80s or the 90s anymore, you know, everyone wants to see that you're doing the right thing. So as a firm, so we bought around this campaign to highlight the kind of change needed, so companies can move away confidently from just using this paper. So going back to what I said just a minute ago, think EnvoPAP, perhaps sits nicely in between if you get 100% recycled paper, it looks 100% recycled. If it's not been bleached, certainly, it could even be almost like an off green color, all the way through to bleach 100% recycled paper or mixed recycled. And it falls, it falls somewhere between, in my opinion, to sort of 100% recycled and white paper, typewriter. White Paper. On the other hand, it falls somewhere in between. So it's a nice kind of mid mid range paper completely suitable for external documents, internal documents. And for companies that want to be progressive and want to embrace change. This is the paper for them.

Will Richardson 16:01

Can you buy it? Like, what do you have you buy it through you obviously? Yeah, I'm thinking of SMEs now. And SMEs don't buy bulk. They buy one room per quarter per six months. Yeah, we bought one room about four or five years ago. So is that possible?

Adam Huttly 16:23

Yeah. I mean, we all the we've got exclusive distribution rights for this in the UK, thanks to EnvoPAP, and this partnership, which is a great position to find ourselves in, you know, it's a real privilege to be there distributor. And obviously, we do sell in bulk to our big clients. You know, we have some huge corporates, and they buy in bulk and pallet loads. But actually, we sell this paper to a lot of our smaller companies as well, or SMEs or B Corp customers. And it can be sold by the box to anyone that wants it as well. It's not exclusive to be clients, you know, we understand that everyone has different needs and different requirements. And I think it's going to sound a bit weird, really, we genuinely mean it, you know, we'd rather not be selling paper, I think that's, that's the ultimate truth. So what we want to do is make sure companies buy the amount of paper they need, and it's not wasted. They understand that anything that's paper related is a real product. So we help them understand that true cost to the environment. And where they still need to be buying paper as many companies do. We work really intimately with companies to help them understand that we want them to buy the best they can and we believe this is the best they can buy.

Will Richardson 17:27

Yeah, okay. And we recommend different papers. And I mean, I'm talking about a number of years ago, now, when I was doing the consultancy work. I remember recommending some paper in it, it failed, they bought a load and it wouldn't go through the printer. And I didn't I hadn't clocked that different paper had different, you know, for different printers. It was a whole new world. I was just like, No, you need to buy the most recycled most environmental paper you can possibly get. And then none of it works. I was like, Oh, that's really bad. Sorry. So Can any printer use EnvoCOPY?

Adam Huttly 18:05

Yeah, I think there's always been a lot of contention around using different papers. And a lot of it is firms don't like change. They use the printer jam, for example, as a really good example of saying, we don't really want to use this paper, but we don't really want to tell you that they are typical kickbacks we get from firms that don't really want to make the move across two different papers. And other famous one is that it won't work in our machines. You know, the engineers told us it won't work in the machine and you know, blah, blah, blah. There's a lot of different settings. And it depends on on the machine you've got. But there are a lot of different settings that you can change on machines to ensure that it will take recycled paper through or a different type of paper. Oh my word. So a lot of companies are moving to 70 gram or 75 from 80 or 90. And that reduction needs a change in settings in the machine. And I think some of that is just never talked about. But EnvoPAP and EnvoCOPY have been trialed and tested as all certified. They put data sheets on the paper. But we didn't want to go and do what you've just talked about. Well, we want to sell it at pallets to them for them to say can you go and pick it up? If it doesn't work?

Will Richardson 19:11

Well, by the sounds of it possibly would have worked and all they needed to do they had they had people behind the scenes? Yep, going on all useless. So because I didn't know the printers, I had to just believe what it was that was being told to me and so did the people I was working with. Absolutely. But yeah, that was me.

Adam Huttly 19:30

Yeah, it you know, to be honest with you over the last five years, when we've been having these conversations, selling different papers through companies, we've come up against many, many obstacles, and many of them are just the fact people don't want to change. It's not the fact they can't. It's the fact that they just simply don't want to you know, people just don't like change. So the kind of intimacy that we have with our clients allows us to go into these buildings talk to these people. Tell them the story and tell them why it's good to be doing it and get help if they need it if the machine is genuinely not taking paper through it Can we help? Can we get an engineer on site? Can we look at changing settings and make it work, but it takes collaboration and it takes intimacy. If you're just a transactional stationery company that says, I'll try that paper is great, and it doesn't work, because you're gonna come back to you, isn't it? These conversations have got to be good and sort of intimate. And actually, I guess ultimately, you both need to be on the same page and fighting for the same cause. So yeah, going back to your point, we didn't want to do that. So we've been trialing it for six months prior to the general release. We've had a large UK law firm, who has 15 sites across the UK, trialing it for us, both in terms of their repro and their office printers. And it's been absolutely fine. We've got 100% strike rate on that. Plus, we've been trialing it through a lots of SMEs clients, some B Corps have been trialing a horse as well. So we got to the stage after six months, we were absolutely happy with it. We rolled it out to another stage. So another couple of law firms who had high usage started taking it and I've been using it successfully ever since. So, yeah, we're all ready to go. We're ready to roll it out everywhere.

Will Richardson 21:03

And how does it compare and cost both to produce and for the customer to purchase?

Adam Huttly 21:07

Yeah, so that's, I think that goes back to our initial points on this conversation, you know, we are not a low cost business in terms of we will not sell the lowest product available on the web to any company is not what we're about. We're about selling products that are competitively priced and market priced. that add value. If you want a box of white paper, what big white box paper, which comes just in a white wrap, you've got no idea where it came from, you've got no idea about the supply chain, you've got potentially no idea about the country of origin, you might have had to buy that online for 14 or 15 quid, but we won't sell it to you, you know, we're not in that market. That's not for us. If it's just about low cost you simply on a client for us, we want clients to understand that this adds value, the whole supply chain has been considered in both the production the raw resources through to to us are selling it. So we price it in terms of competitive market pricing in line with the sort of premium, standard 80 gram papers that are out there on the market. So it's affordable. But it's not the cheapest paper on the market, and nor do we want it to be. And that's where our industry has to change. We have to have these conversations around cost. Not just the price, the cost in the whole supply chain. Yeah.

Will Richardson 22:26

So on, on the back of that. Whilst EnvoPAP puts ways to good use, it still creates waste at the end of its life. Is it environmentally? Are you able to recycle it? What can you Is there anything you can do with that waste? At the end of the EnvoCOPY'S life?

Adam Huttly 22:44

Yeah, so it's like any waste paper. Basically, it can be recycled in your paper waste stream in your office, any plain paper recycling standard waste scheme you have, which nowadays is fairly common and fairly standard. It can be recycled, and it's externally certified by in Vitek. So it's 100%, biodegradable, 100% compostable, as most papers are, and it's 100%, marine degradable as well. So they've gone to a lot of work to ensure that this fits the criteria of end of life. Because we've had many conversations about this, it's all very well saying no book is recycled. But is it recyclable? And I think you know, that end of life bit or cradle to gate or cradle to grave. It is absolutely imperative that when we're talking to our clients and saying this is the best product you can get, we look at that end piece. We don't want to just pretend that's not our responsibility. We need to ensure that we've considered everything and that these clients can easily recycle this paper in a standard but you don't have to go to some special treatment plant. This just doesn't exist anymore. But in the recycling bin and it's done.

Will Richardson 23:48

Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. That's brilliant. So EnvoPAP is the solution to an office equipment problem you've been aware of for a while. Are there any other sustainability gaps in your field that need innovation?

Adam Huttly 24:03

There are many. There are many Well, I think we've got a big problem that you know, I'm going to be I'm going to be harping on about this forever. But the office product world is always going to be slow to react on the demands of today. For too long, this has been about low cost. It's been too much about turnover. Let's get more sales, any costs or any price? And these really, I would call them out of date, although not sure that's probably the right way to say it. But out of date procurement thought process is around stationery. So people see stationery as a commodity. They say you can get it from company a 30,000 pound and if I go to Company B and say I want it cheaper, they're likely to do it for 25 grand is that it's a bottom line cost to a company isn't it? And they historically companies have beaten stationary companies to the ground to say we want to achieve we want it cheap, we want it cheap and we've rolled over and that's where I feel this change needs to really happen. You know, we can't get out of a COVID Hangover, where people are just surviving. There's so many things that need looking at, but it's not going to happen quickly in the office products world, I think recovery comes first, sadly, and then this kind of sustainability agenda will be placed somewhere else down the line. Because, you know, there's many companies that COVID didn't affect at all. So if you take the law industry, for example, it will make good profits aren't they haven't had to really change. If anything, they may have saved money on working from home practices, and they're driving change into their supply chain. And there's many office supplies, companies that just can't keep up with that, sadly, because there's, there's a massive gap in skills and knowledge that need filling. And when it's tough going, you know, how many companies can take the time out to start understanding carbon reporting? Yeah, you know, a complex is I mean, we're lucky, we've been reporting our carbon since 2016, or something like that. But many companies haven't even started yet have they know that they don't know where to start. And they haven't started, let alone helping their clients do their sustainability reporting. So I think going back to your question that there's so many things need looking at in the office supplies world, but it's going to be a slow burner. Yeah. Luckily, we've been doing it for all for a long time. And I feel very privileged that we had that foresight to really drill into that one bit that I felt passionate about. So maybe we can follow up on that and another five years or something like that, and see, see what's actually happened in the office supplies.

Will Richardson 26:24

Now, that'd be brilliant. And I'll tell you what, what's come to mind is, we need to work out all the carbon factor for me, it is so that your clients who are reporting on it do actually know how to report on it from a carbon point of view, because it probably won't have a carbon factor attributed to it as of yet. But that's a thought we should have. So thank you so much for being on today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you back.

Adam Huttly 26:50

Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be back. And really, I mean, I don't know where the time is gone. It's but I would say it's been fun in between, but it's been pretty grim if I'm honest. But it was great, wasn't it? I mean, the B Corp event before Christmas. I mean, let's just give a shout out to B Corps. Yeah. Was it 1000 B Corps at the Natural History Museum? What an event!

Will Richardson 27:09

Yeah, it was amazing. It's worth every minute of it. Yeah. No, it's brilliant. It was brilliant. Just to see so many people all in one room that you knew and respected. That was, that was it for me, there are so many people out there that I respect and admire, and to have the privilege of being able to just be in the same room and go up and talk to them and hug them and see them in real life was just phenomenal.

Adam Huttly 27:33

Yeah, it's been greatly missed, hasn't it? Because I think like us, we you know, we I think my first B Corp was just when we were about to certify. So that would have been the end of 20 2016. I went to London for a week or event and it was about 12 of us in the back of a dingy pub. And look at that. Look at the contrast. Now. Yeah, it's taken over, isn't it?

Will Richardson 27:51

I possibly was at that peak of event was in South Ken?

Adam Huttly 27:53

Yeah. I think it probably was. Yeah, yes. It was very, I mean, there was literally 12 of us, I think, yeah. How things have changed. And then of course, we went on to the first retreat together, didn't we?

Will Richardson 28:07

Which was brilliant, brilliant. And so that's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved, the sustainable business podcast. Thank you to my guest Adam Huttly from Red Inc. I'm Will Richardson, at Green Element. For more information on EnvoPAP, Red Inc, and the Green Element. Everything we have discussed today. Please check the show notes. And if you have any feedback or questions you can get in touch with us at green element on social media. And don't forget to follow this podcast on your favorite app will write us a review. Thank you very much.