Season 5, Episode 173 : Sustainable Dog Ownership

Will Richardson 00:10

Hi and welcome to Sustainability Solved: The Sustainable Business Podcast. I'm Will Richardson. In this episode we're talking about dogs. They are Britain's favorite pet with some estimates putting the number of pets, dogs in UK homes 13 million, a number which grew significantly during lockdown. But as much as we love them, we can't ignore the environmental impacts of our growing canine population. One man who is working to make dogs a little more sustainable is Stephen Jenkinson. Stephen is a consultant who uses applied psychology to help landowners, property developers, councils, and national parks to name but a few influence where dog walkers go and what they do. We feel this is incredibly pertinent to talk about this subject, because more and more businesses are promoting bringing your dogs into the workspace, which does mean that we really need to think about our dogs and what dogs impact has on our environment. Stephen, thank you so much for joining us today. So you're based in Orkney, I think we have to mention it starts off because we literally we can hear the rain and the wind in the background. Personally, I love the noise.

Stephen Jenkinson 01:29

Yeah, no, absolutely. So yeah, I'm here. I'm on mainland Orkney, which for context of people isn't the same distance from London as we are to the edge of Iceland still part of the UK 500 years ago used to be part of Norway. But yeah, I mean, sustainability is just wherever you go here, because, you know, for the last 10 years, it's been more than self sufficient in terms of producing its own electricity for wind and waves and tide. And in fact, the only thing that holds us back is the lack of capacity to send that electricity further south. It's gusting 60 here, so a little bit of a blow in Orkney terms. But no, that's great. And great to be talking to you today. Will,

Will Richardson 02:05

what moved you up there.

Stephen Jenkinson 02:07

I mean, it's just a brilliant place. Before I was here, I was working for the Peak District National Park, and found actually that in terms of technology, and also the way that the Scottish Government was helping the islands be what we like to say is, remote but not isolated. So in terms of the subsidies encourage sustainable economic development on the islands, that was an encouragement, but also we have like a 25 acre croft here, which has got a small lock and land it's managed mainly for wildlife. So things like red throated divers, hen Harriers, otters. So you can tell it's pretty rubbish really Will, but

Will Richardson 02:40

it's a place that is very much on my map and radar to go and visit, I'd love to absolutely love to visit Orkney. Actually, I've not visited Scotland enough, since I moved up here.

Stephen Jenkinson 02:52

It's really interesting, I have a lot of friends who work in environmental and they're always thinking about how can we reduce the impact of what we're doing as consultants, we work. And we're a friend who lives in Aberystwyth so in central Wales, and actually, it's really quite hard for them to get to places. Whereas here, we're really well connected. And when you're having discussions about domestic flights, of course, it's a very different perspective when you're on the island, because people tend to use planes as folk will do trains on mainland UK.

Will Richardson 03:21

And can you tell us a bit more about what you do?

Stephen Jenkinson 03:24

Yeah, for sure. I mean, my work is all about how do we promote the really good things about dog ownership and dog walking, but also minimize any adverse effects on other people, wildlife or farm animals. My first career was in the NHS, so very interested in people and their health. And I became a right of way officer and right away Access Manager and a local authority. And in that time, there was some legislation that came in just over 20 years ago, the countryside in the Rights Of Way Act, which was given an additional right of access to mountain moor, heath and download across England and Wales. And it struck me that when that was imposed, there wasn't an understanding about where dog owners go and what they do. And actually, some of the provisions in that didn't work well. And I thought, actually, surely we can do this dog thing better. Because we know that around half of all our visitors to the countryside, and that goes across the UK, and people with dogs. So yeah, what I do now is actually say, how do we promote the good things about dog ownership. And we know from a lot of the studies that have been done across the globe in the last 20 years, that we know that people with dogs are more active, they have better physical and mental health, they make quicker recoveries from operations, they're more sociable with other people. So there's lots of really good stuff, which tends not to get the publicity, but then we know that there's problems too, in terms of impacts on farm animals and chasing livestock and this sort of thing. Poo, which always comes up and I'm sure we'll talk about that later. But also concerned about both habitats in terms of nutrient enrichment by urine and dog feces, but also in terms of flushing ground nesting birds from their nests, and this sort of thing. There's a concept that's come along in the last bout five or six years called One Health. And this is just a brilliant tool for sustainability in any context, if you like, because it was a group of both medical professionals, environmentalists, and Veterinarians. And this is a worldwide thing, if you Google it, you can find and it's basically saying that the the health of humans is inextricably linked to the health of the environment. And that's directly linked to actually the health of both companion animals, farmed animals, wild animals, we can't look at these things in isolation, if you like, everything has good and bad aspects. And if we just tried to manage narrowly, well, actually, we can have unintended consequences, or we can actually miss out on the really good things about dog ownership.

Will Richardson 05:43

No, definitely. Thank you. So it's dog management, something that landowners are actively seeking solutions for? Or do they only consider it when you offer answers?

Stephen Jenkinson 05:55

Yeah, it's a really good question. And to start with a lot of my work initially, were funded by the kennel club, and people like Natural England Forestry Commission, and in Scotland, the pastoral partnership, because I just approached them when I was thinking we could do this better, and just said, Look, nobody seems to be joining up and sort of doggy welfare walking stuff with actually the environmental stuff. And the Kennel Club has quite a good balance view, because apart from having a key interest in all dogs breeds and their health, and people, it also have a seven and a half thousand acre estate in Northumberland, where there's cattle and sheep, the most of that is designated both open access, so walk in pretty much any way you want. But also some of the highest designations under EU regulations in terms of the habitats and species. So it depends who the client is. So some of them are quite keen to use what I do to engage with people to get them more active more often. But also, then we'll tag in stuff about when the dog walkers go, what they do, what you do with the poo, when do you use the dog's lead this sort of thing. But mostly, I would say, the landowners who have come to me, they've got to the point where it's like, we're not making any progress. It's like you can keep on doing what you're doing. And you'll always get what you've always got. And often you would see signage was done, which the land manager might have thought was really good, but actually, you know, bad signage is really easy to do. If people didn't respond to what was being asked for, they'll do a bigger wall or bigger letters, or sometimes you'd see them in red paint as if it's been painted with a blood of a dog or something. One of the things I do like a Site Audit, so you know, like you have mystery shopper, things for when you're looking at customer service. I do like mystery dog walker. Yeah, things. So go and check out what information is on site. How does it work together? It's really interesting, because actually, all the studies tell us that whilst we can do great signage, and all this sort of thing, actually, dog owners are most influenced by peer behavior, what people like them do. And so working with dog owners as a community is kind of is really important. But also, if we want people to do the right thing, we need to be really clear about that. We can have seasonal sensitivities, as well as sensitivities in terms of area. So basically, coming back to the question, it's really when landowners have used all the old tricks and actually thought, how can I do better, in essence, I like to break it down, like we've got three groups of dog walker, you've got some angels, who will just always do what they're told. And if it's clear that they will just do it, and they're lovely. But then we've got those devils and we've got people who can have dogs, or cars, or whatever it is, that we're the ones who are going to stick like two fingers up at authority, and the only way we're going to really deal with them is through the enforcement route. And that can be quite expensive and difficult. But we need to be aware that there are those people and you know, just because somebody has a dog doesn't make them a good person. But then there's this group of people in the middle that I encourage people to think of as fallen angels. You know, they're the people who don't intentionally go out to cause problems. But actually life or lack of information or whatever can put them in a situation, which isn't ideal for the environment, or for them either, is like where do you want people to go? And what do we want them to do on your site? And then how do we communicate that in a clear way? So basically, yeah, they are seeking answers. But sometimes I think there's a frustration or people just say, oh, Blinky dog owners, or whatever, because there's a frustration on them that they don't have the tools. And so people can just go to a default behavior, it will the key thing is actually responding to the causes of problems rather than just reacting to the symptoms.

Will Richardson 09:26

Brilliant, brilliant. And when most of us think about the impact of dogs on the environment, we think about dog waste, as we were talking about about before, and what are the problems and how can you help?

Stephen Jenkinson 09:37

It's a really critical thing. And for dog owners as well because dog poop can be really unpleasant and particularly if you tread on it, but also if you're somebody with a mobility impairment and using a wheelchair or using a pram, dog poo on the tires really difficult to deal with. But then there's issues about diversity as well because we're increasingly aware that leaving dog poop on the ground or even dog urine can change what's in the sward and can we can have a less diverse What if we can have in things like hay meadows and stuff like that. So there's lots of reasons why we need to deal with this. So how we can help and how people can help themselves. It's firstly having a clear message with all we know, wherever you are in town, coast and country, you don't leave your dog poo behind a bit bit like the Leave No Trace approach that we'll see for people with backcountry camping or whatever. And another key method, which hasn't always come out any general public waste bin will do, you'll still see some council that will have a dedicated bin for dog poo, and then separately a little bit, and you'll have two teams going in empty and then separately, whereas actually ends up mostly in the same place. But the key thing is putting messaging on that to say it's okay for bag dog waste to go in here. Because from studies, we know that around 60% of people when that was done a few years ago, didn't realise that was okay. And so that's why sometimes you can have a general waste bin and then people keep leaving dog poo near it because they don't realize it never came to put it in there. But there are other things that can be done with bins. So there's other work that actually if on the bin, you actually say how far it is to the next thing that's really helpful so that people who are there some way coming up students, dogs who are in there, or even just saying this, this is the last big auto placement of bins is really important. Sometimes they're left in the carpark. But actually people when they walk with their dogs, the last thing they want to do is to go back to the car park with an excited dog to put that in and go away.

Will Richardson 11:27

And what what sort of bags, what sort of bags have because surely there must be an impact of having plastic bags, you'd have that there must be biodegradable, like properly biodegradable bags, not biodegradable in inverted commas.

Stephen Jenkinson 11:43

Yeah, you're on the money there. And it's really important point because while people are picking up there is the issue of the bags. And you will see some that are still promoted as biodegradable, but some of them particularly the plastic ones, only degrade in sunlight. And what happens is that they shatter when they're exposed to sunlight. But then we get in all sorts of microplastics that, you know, they do degrade, but they don't go back. So the best sort of bags for people to have now are the ones that are derived from cornstarch. So those are the ones that are properly compostable. And while not everybody will have the opportunity to do home composting, well, they're going to biodegrade more in landfill more quickly if they're in a compostable bag. But also if they do get left behind or something, they're not going to be quite as much of a problem. But it's really interesting because there's a general thought that actually putting compostable or biodegradable on bags can make people more likely to think, oh, it's not a problem to leave it behind. So there's a real challenge there in getting the message in right. I mean, I always pick up and just as a sign of why that might not always be a good thing. I was doing some work for Dublin City Council in the Phoenix parks or the big green space there. And I'd flown just have to do for more money on three separate small planes to get there. And in the evening in my hotel, I thought Oh, I must have trodden in something or there was something bad in that ranger's Landrover because I can smell smell dog poo. And then I went into my coat and it's like, ah, there's a field bag from when I walked my dog before I went went away. So if anybody was on those three flights between Orkney and Dublin and thought, there's a funny smell in the overhead cabin here, my apologies because I'd actually carried it all that way.

Will Richardson 13:26

I'd really like to ask you some questions about planning and you've recently worked on some planning guidance with the Kennel Club Whitehill and Bordon, eco town? That's correct. And Hampshire County Council. Can you tell us a bit about that project, please?

Stephen Jenkinson 13:40

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it comes back to what I said earlier is that actually, if we really want to help people have dogs in ways that are good for the environment and avoid the problems, we need to think about what are the causes of the problem and not just react to the symptoms. And so we know from all the data we have that around a quarter to a third of all homes will have a dog in them in and around London, it tends to be about 10%. But that's still pretty high. When you think about how many houses they are in more rural areas, you know, that can nudge up towards the 30 40%. So the key approach is actually how do we manage that, in essence, people with dogs want happy, healthy, hassle free dog walks, you know, they're not wanting conflict. Often they're they're starting their day, or they're ending the day they've had hassle at work. They just want to relax with their dogs. So it's like, how do we help them do the right thing? So the approach for good planning that's used in England, which is underpinned by Natural England is saying, Actually, we know that actually, people with dogs once or twice a day want to take around a 2.6 Kilometer walk. It takes around an hour, and the majority of that they need to have some off feed exercise. So it might have on board and at the moment that we're in about 4000 homes. It was a former garrison town where the Army have pulled out and now they're building new houses on the site, but it's surrounded by sensitive sites for ground nesting birds in particularly. So upfront it is saying, right? We know these houses are being built. And as much as we would already say, Where's the wastewater gonna go to? Where's the where children gonna go to school? How are people going to be able to get to and from work and home and shops and this sort of thing? It builds in a question. So where are all the people going to walk their dogs, because we're gonna be there. And that's the key thing. So once you've got that, you then make sure that those good green spaces without offering off leash exercise on people's doorsteps, because in other cases, they will say, oh, we'll ban them from here and make people walk their dogs elsewhere, where it's actually from thinking from sustainability, you're saying, Okay, well, is it that much better, that people are getting in their cars twice a day to walk their dogs, often on short journeys, which we know can be the most polluting, as well. And then how that's funded is actually because of the you birds and habitats regulations, which underpins all this. It actually developers have to provide funny money both to for the land purchase, but also for the maintenance of green space. And on the say, in the terminus basin, so around Reading, and to the west of London, there can be between for an average house 10 12,000 pounds added coming from the developer per property to actually pay for good green spaces. So for example, farms have been bought up with less productive ones, golf courses have been bought up and made really brilliant places for people to walk their dogs. And this is what the planning guidance is about. Because if you offer somebody a no hassle, enjoyable experience on their doorstep, they will just use that. And that's just because it gives them what they like most. So they're very compliant with it. So you're not having to do this education about these birds are really sensitive or don't do this. It's self regulating. And that's a great approach. So yeah, that was the first planning guidance of its kind, and it works.

Will Richardson 16:50

So you've got commercial dog walkers, and they are becoming more and more, I'd say prolific, probably because we are seeing our culture changing. And also, you know, the number of dogs increasing. And I think during lockdown, we saw that people were able to walk their dogs quite a lot. And then suddenly, oh, I have to go back into the office. Oh, I have to walk my dog when I'm in the office. And so you're seeing these professionals, you know, employing other people. And it's this is probably quite a big industry or not, you know, it's probably, it's probably growing, I would hazard a guess. Yeah. What, what are the problems that that can create?

Stephen Jenkinson 17:33

Often people are quite naive, particularly as you say, they've been got a dog during COVID, which we know, you know, happening, or quite a few cases, they're looking to somebody to walk their dogs when they're at work. But remember, it's not just at work, it could be somebody working shifts and doesn't feel happy walking their dogs at night and that sort of thing. So there can be lots of good issues behind it. I make that point because some people say, well, what's the point in having a dog and if you pay somebody else to walk in, but you could say the thing, same things about childcare or whatever, it's generally unregulated industry, I like to make a distinction between the professional dog walkers who do a really good job, and that there's some really good ones out there. And the people who are commercial, who I would say, are just doing it for money, doing badly, it can intensify the problems that we've talked about, because people repeatedly going to the same site and not picking up their dog's poo or having their dogs flushing wildlife can be a concern. There's a project that I worked on with Scottish Natural Heritage as wards in Scotland, where I ran a number of workshops for dog owners of commercial dog walkers, and they could come along, and there was a talk from a vet. But there was also a talk about environmental issues and how to be a good if you like green business. And there was a real interest from those commercial dog walks and say, Look, there's some bad operators, how can we add value to what we're doing, so that the dog owners know that we're a better person to trust with their dogs and actually put these, like the cowboy operators out of the business. So actually good in giving good information to them, is really helpful. And there was a lot of interest in them in terms of, you know, getting a good approach. Often, we actually don't say what we want. So if you won't go to the New Forest National Park Authority, they've got a really good dog, professional dog walker charter, we just set this out, you know what this looks like. But the other thing is that just around the corner from you will actually be clothing Council, they have a voluntary scheme for registering to be a dog walking business. But as part of that, and the businesses get listed on their website, and that you know, the people being listed sign up to say, You know what, we'll do this, we'll always pick up we won't walk the dogs were there's sheep or their sensitivities. And you might think that doesn't work. But what they found was that if somebody didn't comply, that they would get a letter, if it was serious, there might be some court action, but generally, they'd say, No, you're not abiding by all the rules, we're going to take you off the list. And actually, he found that was really effective, because all of a sudden, if you're listed on the Council website, you'll come a lot higher in Google rankings. So what's Musselburgh or Portobello, or you know, dog walking, the ones that are On the Local Authority website, get all the business and they've had these bad operators seen coming back and saying, I'm really sorry, you know, I did thi,s can I come back on it? And they usually left off for a year, because it hits their business. So whilst commercial dog walkers, bring it some challenges, because we can engage with that commercial element to it and help people develop better, more responsible businesses, which are more attractive to their clients. Well, that's uniquely makes other opportunities. So there's stuff that can be done. The difficulty is, is often local authority or the funding to to actually just put in the effort upstream to deal with problems further on

Will Richardson 20:35

Make sense. And finally, are there any instances where dog walkers have actually had positive impacts on the environment?

Stephen Jenkinson 20:44

There's lots of examples. I mean, first and foremost, I come back to the human health benefits, the community has been unhealthy and needing more pharmaceuticals or more interventions, is not good anyway, in terms of resources, if we can reduce that, but also there's really practical things, we think about problems with dogs and the environment. But actually, the biggest concerns are habitat loss. And actually, because you've got people using green spaces, particularly around town or country, or whatever it is, if there's a threat for those being built on all there's a problem, you've got a big group of people who will lobby their politicians about green space. And when we shouldn't forget the value of that final one as well, which is quite interesting is that people with dogs are more likely to take holidays at home, rather than go abroad, which then links into taking flights and doing all this sort of thing. So if they've got a dog, what are they going to do? Are they going to take more holidays, and they're going to just become more sedentary, and they're going to do something that's even worse than maybe they'll drive their cars more. So it's this whole joined up thing that really excites me and whatever, whether it's dogs or cycling, or cars, or whatever it is, how do we, you know, promote and support the good stuff that in minimize the bad impacts? Because dogs is a people issue like everything else?

Will Richardson 21:53

No, it's very true, that holiday thing is Laura and I've talked about it and talks about the fact that I mean, we don't we actually haven't flown for years. But it's not. That's kind of not the point we've we know that if we get a dog, we'll be staying in the holidays that we're staying staying, which actually excites us because we want to explore Scotland more, and we want to explore Europe more. So it's a good end. So thank you so much for being on today. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on, Steve, thank you.

Stephen Jenkinson 22:24

Now brilliant, and thank you for inviting me and good luck with that next dog that you get whenever you do

Will Richardson 22:28

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And that's it for this episode of sustainability saw the Sustainable Business Podcast. I'm Will Richardson a green element. For more information on the green element. Today's guests Steven Jenkinson and everything we've discussed today, please check the show notes. If you have any feedback or questions, you can get in touch with us at green element on social media. And don't forget to follow this podcast in your favorite app and write us a review. Thank you so much.