Season 2, Episode 64 : Santiago Navarro

Intro: (00:08)
Welcome back to the green element podcast where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I’m your host will Richardson and I can’t wait to meet our guest today and help you on your journey of sustainability.

Will: (00:28)
Hi Santiago, welcome to the green element podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. So Santiago, you run a wine company, Garcon Wines are changing the way that we’re seeing packaging within the wine industry, bottles, et cetera. Please tell us more about what it is that’s Garcon Wines is doing?

Santiago: (00:48)
Hi Will and hi Green Element and the green element. You are a community listener community. It’s a pleasure to be here to expand a little bit about what we’re doing. Yes, correct. I’m Santiago, I’m the CEO and co founder of Garcon Wines , the inventor of the 21st century wine bottle. And I guess what do I mean by 21st century wine bottle? The world of wine has been using the same bottle for the last two centuries around the glass bottle that has its origins in France. So most of the world of wine access wine into two shade bottles. That’s originates in the two Key Appalachians of Bordeaux and Burgundy in France. We still use 35 billion of those bottles today. And they have a unnecessarily large carbon footprint. Its our view to advance the wine bottle into the 21st century, creating a bottle that’s not only superior from an environmental perspective, but also from an economic perspective.

Santiago: (01:50)
In fact, I’m, I should say that we have come to be recognized as a benchmark for drinks, packaging sustainability. And that’s because we are a great example of triple bottom line sustainability. What I mean by that is packaging that creates a healthier planet, a wealthier industry and happier consumers. So I’ll summarize that and then I’ll probably elaborate later on in this conversation. But the health of the planet is simply as a result of a spatially efficient, lightweight bottle slashes. The carbon footprint of the logistics of the wine that’s in term obviously has its obvious benefits for the health of our planet. In terms of the space and weight savings that slashed the carbon footprint. That’s also cuts, logistics costs, which are launched part of a wine and other wine companies costs, so I’m benefiting the company or the industry or just the planet and ultimately projects like we’ve done with letterbox wine, so delivering wine seamlessly into consumer’s homes in UK, not having to be in to take or receiving a gift as a surprise to your letterbox and inside of your home. It’s something that’s only consumers in UK have been really happy about, but there’s also an important economic and environmental message with letterbox delivery. It allows for one to have a successful class time delivery. Once again, cutting the costs in the carbon footprint of the last mile.

Will: (03:22)
Brilliant. I love that. That’s box delivery hadn’t even crossed my mind when I was looking at your websites and looking at what it is that you do, but of course it makes complete sense. Brilliant.

Santiago: (03:36)
There is, I mean it’s been something was really massively popular with the media and with consumers and we’ve got lots of business out of it from specifically from the gifting industry in the UK. But there is an important economic and environmental message, which I think is an important one, certainly for the professionals or business individuals who listened to your podcast. A seamless delivery that cuts. The cost of redelivery ensures that consumers are happier, but also the carbon footprint of having to have vans tried to attend three delivery or have been people jump in their cars to drive to a depot to pick up delivery that failed. So where possible products going to a letterbox are great. And actually I was in this morning with a giant of food delivery. I’m doing a workshop exercise on innovation and they don’t delivered to the letterbox, but they certainly are interested. Same with Royal mail. We’ve had a lots of engagement in Royal Mail w s very positive about the opportunity for letterbox delivery and to use the Royal Mail Service because it’s a great service that once again supports the wider UK economies. So I guess for the purpose, because I am being filmed, I should show what a wine bottle looks like. And so it’s a cross section of the bottle that I mentioned that, yeah. So we do, we embrace the heritage and tradition of wine while advancing it into the 21st century. Um, uh, I can elaborate more later

Will: (05:02)
And I’m assuming that it’s still at least rewind or 750 minute litres or whatever size bottle. Correct.

Santiago: (05:10)
So once again, it’s 75 players or 750 ML. That’s the volume that consumers know and like it works for Diana’s, it works for people who know how much a wine bottle is. So, um, we don’t believe that the volume is an issue. We don’t believe that, you know, an adaptation to the traditional shape is an issue. The key grape varieties from Bordeaux and burgundy also sometimes referred to as the Nobu grape varieties of spread across the world of wine. So a Bordeaux Murillo wine bottled in a Bordeaux bottle traditionally in Bordeaux is also the bottle used from Chille to Australia. And that’s a beautiful parts of the world of the wine. Something that’d be emotional, experiential, which is what consumers love. So that doesn’t need changing. And for us in our view, commercial success relies upon true sustainability. And part of that is a product that can scale. And for that we believe emotional and the experiential cannot be left behind, cannot be ignored. Consumers need to be happy when they see [inaudible].

Will: (06:15)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. Obviously I wouldn’t know the answer to this, which is why I’m asking it. There are some wines that age, once they’ve been bottles and they get better over time, does the shape of the bottle make any difference to that or how does that fit in with, so,

Santiago: (06:34)
uh, first of all I should say that’s um, the proportion of the world of wine, which is wines that’s, ah, bottled in such a way for seller angle to that benefits from aging in bottle is very small. The bulk of what we drink is wines that’s all produced, towed and consumed in the same year or same vintage. So then we’ll consume the next vintage. In some cases there is aging that happens in Barrow buried in tank and then we drink a wine that is over a year have gone by because of actually aged and in bottle. It’s aged then Barrow to get certain flavors and other things. So no, we are targeting mainstream wines. Wines that will be bought so then consumed in the same year or same vintage approximately depends on the style of the wine. It’s actually to do with the material rather than the shape. So we use preexisting plastic, we use post consumer recycled pet, we buy waste, which would otherwise end up risk ending up as waste to landfill or being incinerated to them.

Santiago: (07:34)
We turned that back into a value product, which is a wine bottle. So I’m part of the point I made before about creating a bottle that’s fit for the 21st century is also a bottle that’s able to go to the complex supply chains of the wo, the wine or the world of food or the world of drinks. You know also the world is changing. We no longer produce and purchase and consume wine in our local village or area tends to be, we’re drinking wines from across the world and as part of that process gloss, unfortunately it’s too heavy and a chatter as easily round is a very inefficient shape. So for us it was looking at all the elements of this creating a path that would be suitable for mass market wines, which is where we can have the biggest impact. If we take the small section of wines that only few of us drink correctly and most of us will only takes the few times in our lives, so maybe once a year for our birthday or a special occasion, we will make very little impact there.

Santiago: (08:36)
By changing that packaging, we will probably actually, before we start to innovate for those few percent move, probably move into all the drinks or other delivery mechanisms to make the drinks industry to make the world of food a much more sustainable space and delivery and packaging is fundamentally important. If you look at the recent data published by UBS bank on the future of foods, they show innovation and food. Being a space that will grow from 135 billion a year to $700 billion a year and more than 50% of that says $100 billion a year, 365 billion to be exact will be delivery of food and specifically delivery of food engaged within a digital world. So for us it’s about showing through a wine box. So probably the most engaging grocery product there is how we can innovate in a relevant and meaningful way to make the wine industry more sustainable and through that encourage other products, maybe even do them ourselves, but in the meanwhile, talk openly to the industry and encourage others to take the same steps we did too. Even if some cases use elements of what we are doing and make their businesses more sustainable primarily for the health of our planet because we are in the midst of a climate crisis and it looks like it will get on the better and so we need to make deep and major changes.

Will: (10:10)
You talk about the emissions from travel with it being lighter, more efficient to package, etc. Have you done carbon footprint analysis on, on the difference between taking their normal 12 K spotter and I’ll say six bottles from A to B and what the difference is.

Santiago: (10:31)
Yeah, so we haven’t yet, and on our own lifecycle analysis on this point, because we don’t have enough data from a large enough wine company to understand exactly where the wine starts, where it moves to the distance in the UK, the distance at sea or on train or on lorry. We are working with a number of large wine organizations that are considering implementing our packaging into their business and they are using their own data to conduct their own LCAs, and environmental studies. However, a few years back WRAP, the well known environmental charities in UK conducted a study just simply looking at light-weighting bottles, not changing the shape but light weighting them. And we can extrapolate the data from this study to show that our bottle, which is 63 grams versus an average bottle weight of 500 grams. So 87% lighter would say if an excess of 500 grams of CO2 per bottle across the supply chain.

Santiago: (11:31)
So as single bottle could save half a kilo by extrapolating the figures from Wrap. We in the UK consume 1.7 billion bottles of wine a year across the globe. It’s somewhere in the region of 35 billion bottles of wine yet. So if you made the numbers that it’s significant while still having a product. Importantly, that looks beautiful from a dining table. We’re not encouraging people. We’re not encouraging businesses to take on a product that will make them lose money. We’re not encouraging consumers to take on a product that will make their dining tables look more ugly. We’re actually trying, we’re keeping both on a positive, but we’re also asking a carbon footprint. There’s data there. There’s also very interesting data from the alcohol monopolies and the Nordics. So Sweden, Finland and Norway operate alcohol monopolies and the result of having a monopolistic scenario, they already able to do what’s right for the country because they have no competition.

Santiago: (12:30)
They dictate what happens. They conduct very detailed dossiers on packaging and what is clear is there is a massive difference between round glass bottles and even around PET bottle and that wouldn’t occur. create for the difference in being flat, so to give you the figures approximately it’s about half six 75 grams of CO2 versus two 45 grams of CO2 according to Alco’s data, one of the three monopolies, but they do a joint life cycle analysis on all their packaging every couple of years and that is published in the public domain once again basis like my own Twitter accounts are a great place to find this. I share it. I share very openly innovations in wine and can, wine in box and wine and keg. Yes, there are massive benefits to lightweighting. In addition to design a product that’s most patient efficient and I was just finally out, actually we didn’t just go flat.

Santiago: (13:32)
We designed a box that packs in a way not seen before and drinks. So we pack 10 and full size bottles in a case that would otherwise carry just four round glass bottles of the same volume. We get 2.3 times the amount of product on a pallet. That means direct savings on the number of pallets of costs and the carbon footprint, less lorries on the road, less containers on ships, less complainants on trains, direct impact by just packing more effectively. We caught all the space pretty much as space from a box where traditionally if you open a box of wine, you see all these heads sticking out on all this space around it because they’re just so ineffective to pack. We pack bottles across from the bottles that stand up removing all their space and it’s harder to explain to talking on our website. I explained clearly to graphics how exactly we do that. Once again, it’s been something that’s great to a massive amount of interest because there is too much air space being moved around the globe in logistics and we need to cut that to cut the carbon footprint.

Will: (14:44)
I mean that makes such a difference. I used to work with Justerini & Brooks and it’s to sell wine for them on some James Street knowing. And they are not a big, I wouldn’t say they’re a massive one merchant, but they were transporting a lot of wine around the country every day. Well, Monday to Friday. And knowing in my head how much wine they were shipping around and then thinking about what you’ve just said about restricting it will save. You know, companies like Justerini & Brooks and these other wine merchants, a huge amount of money anyway because there’ll be so much more efficient. Instead of having four or five vans, they could even have just one driving around.

Santiago: (15:29)
Totally. And actually you can get more deliveries from example into electric van. So we talked to a number of very broad range of companies along the value chain of wine. In some instances it’s just cutting the number of containers or trucks. And we’ve spoken to organizations with logistics bills north of $10 million from out in U S cause it wine moves a great, great distances and US ability to take 4 to $5 million directly into your bottom line that you never thought you could before is really an important thing for an industry. If you work with just reading books and you know the wine world, it’s a world of very tight margins and wineries need to be able to make all the money they can make and why waste it when you can save it might have a more efficient pack. And so, so yes, it’s really an important element, but likewise, now that you have more and more electric vehicles or small autonomous delivery vehicles that are being tested, you can achieve much greater utilization of that space by having a package that’s more lightweight.

Santiago: (16:36)
It may be hard to show on camera, but that’s our 10 bottle case. I’m not a big guy at all and that’s my hand. And so what you can see here is actually we cut out. So you can see how the bottles are lined up like box and then there’s two boxes across the top. It’s a very simple innovation, but it’s very, very impactful. And that’s why people get it. It’s the same with going flat. Flat is simply a cross section of round. It’s no, no great feat. It’s a slightly more challenging to produce. That’s no reason why we shouldn’t be doing it. If we can have a positive impact on our environment, we hopefully most listeners of this podcast will be aware that we went in the last year from 410 to 415 parts per million CO2 in our atmosphere. That’s five parts per million in one year to May 2019 in the preceding five years, we had only gone from 400 to 410 parts per million.

Santiago: (17:36)
That’s 10 parts per million over five years or two parts per million a year. So things are accelerating, if we hit 450 the extreme weather events will be something of biblical proportions. And I think most don’t ever recognize, I’m speaking to you today from Central Covent Garden. It’s August and the last few days we’ve had just from nowhere. Hailstones but just moments. And a few days ago I saw on the news, it didn’t rain so heavily in Luton that the inside of the terminal of Luton airport was gushing with water. We’re just not prepared for what is coming, and we can choose to make positive, direct, deep, immediate changes. And our pack is one way of showing that. And the good thing is wine is a talking point and more and more when people drink it, they talk even more. So we dedicate a lot of space on pack to communicating what we’re doing. And we hope that it gets people to rethink the way they move, the way they power the houses, you know, all the many things that can have an impact through having a conversation over the glass of wine.

Will: (18:48)
And we had um, wine company called Renegade and Longton, I don’t know if you know them, they make sparkling elderflower wine a few, quite a few months ago now. And Brendan was talking about the labels and the type of labels you put on it. Now, I guess for him it’s a separate product because he, he actually talks about the fact that he literally could not choose anything other than glass because of the pressure that’s built up inside of the bottle. So therefore for him he was also looking at using only paper labels and the type of ink on it, but being a plastic bottle then there are going to be different drivers around it. Does that come into consideration with the way that you think.

Santiago: (19:36)
Yes it does. Thank you for the question because I should have mentioned it earlier when we were talking about designing a product that’s fit for a 21st century woe, the product that’s designed to be as ecofriendly as possible. It’s important for us that the product we designed was widely, easily and fully recyclable and it is. That’s why we use a plastic cap and that’s why you use a plastic label. It’s a different type of plastic, so PT, P E Cap P P label and PT bottle or recycled PT bottle as, because they go into the same recycling stream and they separate true flotation. So it’s very important that we can separate the label, remove the inks, not to pollute their recyling stream from PET. But importantly, yes, our bottle has been designed with recycling in mind. It has PT is a very recyclable product and we believe that the future is using plastics in a smart way using the right plastics in the initial phase.

Santiago: (20:36)
So using preexisting plastic, we have a lot of it in circulation and it’s been all too easy. Just use virgin material. That’s not the right thing to do. It’s the easy or the thing to do rather than the right thing to do. Many companies will pay the price for that as a result of cutting corners historically. But yes, that’s an important point. On top of that, when you have a product as ours is designed for food consumption, the resulting product needs to be food grade standard to XR, so European union and FDA American standards. And it is, and that means that there is no potential migration or if there is migration over a decent Zorin from belabor that they have no impact on human health. And so that’s when we choose the label we choose. We choose it from a recycling perspective and from a food safety perspective.

Santiago: (21:30)
And I’m both those all certified true complex migration testing to ensure that they all fit for purpose. We drink our own wines at the end of the day as work every day. And so we want to ensure that they are of the best possible standard and that recycling is a very important one. And when we first launched the product, we were unaware of the complexities of the recycling stream and the first few pallets that we released them to the market and the photos of it. This was a product with an Aluminium, a screw cap closure. We were then cautioned or warned by a recycling charity that’s good friends of ours nowadays and said listen Garcon Wine, the aluminum color ones, the screw cap is removed, will impact on the recyclability of that great bottle. So you should try and find a way around it. And so we stopped production, we stopped any further bottles being filled and we look to find a cap that was widely, easily and fully recyclable, which we found them. That’s the sole cap we will use going forward.

Will: (22:36)
Um, how did you get into, I mean, were you always in the wine trade or were you in, you’ve just said you weren’t in the re, you didn’t know the recycling part, but what was your background to get you into this?

Santiago: (22:48)
Yeah, so not knowing there was like part is I guess also apart of the lanes. I’ll come back to how I came around to this afterwards. It’s a point that we take forward in our business, we don’t expect consumers or people who are not engaged in in waste and recycling and refuse collection to fully understand recycling. And at the moment there’s too many complex products that require splitting apart. Take the good old bag in box for wine. It is recyclable to a certain extent, but you’ve got to rip the box from the bag and the vow from the bag and put them into different recycling streams. And all of those soda bottles is recyclable. We wanted a bottle that in its entirety can be flung into a plastics recycling bin and would be for the recycleble. I came actually to this business. I joined my cofounder having come out to my first venture, which was an online wine selling wine and round glass bottles, and what I realized very clearly from that business was we were not going to be able to scale as an industry.

Santiago: (23:54)
Digital sales online sales direct to consumer says would a 19th century vessel, the round the glass bottle was going to hold us back. So much so that if you look across Western Europe, only 4% of wine is sold through the digital channel. UK is ahead of most of Western Europe at 10% but for a complex product where you could benefit from a whole webpage or some more information than you’d get on a supermarket shelf, it really make sense to buy wine through a digital channel where you have that greater information for food matching, for recipes, the pasting notes for backgrounds on the wine maker, all the things that make your purchase better informed, but it’s lagging because anyone who will have worked with wine through complex supply chains to courier companies will recognize that unfortunately a bottle that shatters so easily that’s so heavy on that spatially efficient is simply the worst case of bottle that you could come up with if you take in mind the complex supply chains of a 21st century world.

Santiago: (25:05)
So shutting down my first business and deciding what to do next, I realized that probably coming up with a way to deliver seamlessly into UK homes with a pack that could be used, could be delivered by Royal mail or any coureir who decided to fling the product anywhere they wanted and would be probably the best solution for my business. But for anyone else. And final point on that is actually we’ve gone on recently to certify our single bottle delivery case. So this is a case that takes a single bottle and can be delivered to a letterbox and we’ve had that Amazon frustration free packaging certified. It’s the most rigorous certification for putting a product through a massive logistical beating. And, it should come out the other end with the internal product undamaged without needing an outer case. So it should be a limited amount of packaging.

Santiago: (26:08)
It goes through 17 drops of different types and compression and ice, the six certification for the logistical out of there. But yes, once again, really important. The product that looks good from dining table resembles the bottle. We know and like has pulls on the tradition of the wine bottle shapes we know and like, but once again is built and designed for the 21st century. So having a business stuff struggle to scale because of a, around the glass bottle I guess was to me a problem and a catalyst to saying there’s got to be something better. Although I must say we tried so many different ideas and we considered so many different options over engineered options to come up with a 21st century wine vessel or um, delivery container. And then it was only after a lot of work that we find new. Realize, you know what, it’s probably best we just take a cross section of the bottle that we know in life and make it in a lightweight, strong material that’s also a sustainable materials source.

Santiago: (27:21)
And so for those listening who might be concerned about plastic or fear plastic or call themselves plastic-free, I asked them to reconsider that position because in my view, according yourself, plastic free is going to create a bigger problem. We need to embrace the material and use it smartly until we can get rid of it in a clean way by just saying I’m plastic free. That’s removing your responsibilities from being part of the solution. We know well enough, whether it’s business or personal, if you’ve got a problem, you need to face it head on, pretending it doesn’t exist and moving it to other people’s responsibility is probably not the fair. And and responsible thing to do. So for us, we’re very excited about the future of materials. We’re very excited about the future of recycling. Um, whether it’s a bio or all chemical, there’s many different great innovations in process, but for the time being, we need to embrace above ground carbon and we need to find ways in which we can use it effectively and then eventually get rid of it in a clean and safe way and use more modern materials. That have no impact on our food supply. So bearing in mind some materials do impact the availability of food for a booming population of the world, but that can be truly and easily bio degradable and compostable. Many are not, many are miss marketed at the moment, but that’s probably a conversation for another day because it’s a very indepth one and a very important one. But I just always feel responsible to ask people to take informed decisions rather than knee jerk reaction one.

Will: (29:10)
I agree. Yeah, no, I agree completely. And we’ve got so much plastic we can reuse anyway, so it makes sense to reuse it rather than, you know, otherwise it’s almost worse if you look at it in some ways you’ve extracted this oil, you’ve produced a load of carbon emissions and then you just land fill that. Correct.

Santiago: (29:32)
Well, actually even worse, correct. If everybody runs away from it to turn to the most extreme situation, everyone goes plastic free. Nobody will fund and fuel the collection of that plastic. That’s an existence. The way we clean up garbage patches is by giving that garbage patch value because then actually even better as duct waste material has value and entrepreneurs will compete to collect that material and sell it back into the ecosystem, not just relying upon governments to fund it. Governments are too slow to move and entrepreneurs can move in a second.

Will: (30:11)
Yeah, absolutely. And so obviously any wine company could buy your bottle and use bottle.

Santiago: (30:21)
Uh, yeah. So we make our intellectual property open, to the public to take from us and to use for their own business. We encourage many wineries, we have a number of the big giants and wine at the moment looking at using the pack for their, some of their brands or elements of their production, which is very, very positive on some most of the giants and logistics and delivery and supermarket brands. So yes, we took a very early decision in our business to go from B to C to B to B and to do that for the benefit of the industry as a whole.

Will: (30:59)
That’s brilliant. That’s really, um, that’s very Elon Musk view

Santiago: (31:05)
A great entrepreneur who does a lot also for the health of our planet through greate vehicles and true solar technology.

Will: (31:11)
Yeah. It’s interesting. T he way that he has changed and manipulated the way that we think about things and brought things into more mainstream, um, kind of, you know, ways of thinking.

Santiago: (31:25)
Another great person I has and actually links me to our product to Sir David Attenborough who did a phenomenal job at bringing the responsible use of plastic to the world’s attention. And we started developing our bottle and a hundred percent preexisting plus way in advance of blue planet too. I did that and I held firm on that position because I knew it was the right thing to do. I was aware of the environment in a way that probably others are not. And actually since one to show you here is a handwritten letter from, Sir David to myself wishing us as an organization every success and recognizing that using preexisting plastic and also cutting the weight of a bottle was the right thing to be doing. I wanted to be clear with myself, with my team and with the market that what I was doing was right, which is why I engaged with.

Santiago: (32:24)
Sir David and I sent him a letter and the sample, and, he kindly took the time to write back with this lovely letter earlier this year, 2019. So we’re proud of what we do. We take extra steps to do the right thing. We believe that’s the way you build the businesses. That’s a sustainable in the way that my grandparents or great grandparents did. Not necessarily the way businesses are built in Silicon Valley or other places such as the homes of Elon Musk and others where businesses are just going off to funding and trying to scale as quickly as possible while forgetting the ecosystem around them. We build a business to change an industry in a positive way to advance some industry. We engage with anyone who wants to and you know, as a byproduct we will be successful and make money. But our primary reason for getting out of bed in the morning is not to make money, it’s to do good and to benefit the industry as a whole.

Santiago: (33:24)
If you do anything properly in the longterm, you will make money. But to solely do anything to make money would have meant that we would have probably produced the bottle and virgin material and not cared about the recycling. You know, use that on a minium closure. That’s not the right thing to do. And so the market should be informed and consumers should vote with their pounds or dollars or euros and support those organizations. Doesn’t have to be mine. But, um, you know, there are companies investing in clean energy. Consumers should back them and should use them as the source of the energy they use, well their homes, et cetera. Because we need to have a planet we can live on in 50 years time. It’s useless amassing money. If you’re no longer able to live on this beautiful planet.

Will: (34:14)
No, absolutely. Absolutely. Where can we buy wine that’s used in your bottles?

Santiago: (34:20)
Yeah, so there’s a lot, there’s quite a large range of stockist online. Some are wine companies, online wine companies, others are gifting companies. We are still relatively niche in terms of reach because we’ve only been in the market for about a year. And the primary use case has been the gifting industry. We recently, for example, where the wine of Bristol Pride an amazing festival in the city of Bristol and we were very happy to support and adapt initiative and to work with dots initiative. And we will shortly see some raw products on air planes. Um, we’ve got some very interesting projects. They’re in the pipeline and supermarkets and others. So hopefully by the first quarter of 2020 which is also around the same time we enter to the United States market, we will be more broadly covered than the UK for the time being.

Santiago: (35:08)
I guess our own website carries a list of stockists of where people can see who stocks us. They’re from products, different price points, different offerings because in some cases the product is offered with chocolate or with flowers, et cetera. So yeah, a growing list of stockist as a result of a great team getting out there and getting the product to market. But I will be probably growing very shortly had the hockey curve inflection and the graph as a result of partnering with a couple of very large giants in wine, and could have the reach or have the retail space and to get the product out on a truly national and global scale.

Will: (35:53)
That’s brilliant. Well done. It’s awesome to hear and it’s really great to hear someone that’s truly. Changing an industry, completely changing it. How do we know more? How can we learn more from about you?

Santiago: (35:59)
Yeah, so I guess our websites is kept very up to date. We recently launched a new version, which is in beta and that gives a comprehensive view of who we are. Um, I tweet very regularly and I informed the market water up to likewise on LinkedIn. I’m a big communicator because I believe it’s my responsibility to share what we’re doing even sometimes in advance of us doing it to encourage others to stimulate others, to motivate others to do the same. So I’d say website, Twitter and LinkedIn are probably the best places to follow what we’re up to. We’re also very fortunate that the world’s media does cover us extensively and we do share once again what we’re doing there. Likewise, the new section of the website.

Santiago: (36:56)
So those are great, great places to um, to follow what we’re doing. But I actually encourage people also to follow the greater matters on environmental topics to follow our measurement of parts per million in CO2, in our atmosphere. That’s data people should be aware of every month. It’s readily available online and should hopefully encourage consumers, people in society as a whole to make the changes that Gretta Thunburg please for that. Sir David Attenborough for that, Al Gore please for, we really need to recognize that this is a, a challenge like never seen before and we need to rise to that challenge and make changes. So follow what we’re doing, but please do follow the more important, bigger picture and we’ll come to shelves to supermarkets, to online stores around where most people are and we’ll make that effort. I’m hopeful that society in general follows the really important topics because they are more time-critical and much more important than us.

Will: (38:06)
Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. We’ll put all the links on our website in the show notes, so thank you very much for your time today, Santiago. Thank you.

Speaker 2: (38:17)
Thank you so much for listening to the end of this episode, the greener and podcast do take a moment and share this with your friends and colleagues and rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. I’d love to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation? What are you going to do differently? Please share your thoughts across social media and attack so we can see them too at GE underscore podcast, the links and show notes for this episode. Visit our website, [inaudible] dot co.uk for slash podcast. Thank you again. I hope you’ll join me on the next episode and together we can help create a better world.