Season 4, Episode 136 : Robert McLaughlin

Will Richardson 00:04
Welcome to the Green Element Podcast where we meet business leaders and innovators, transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable, and in the process help you on your journey of sustainability. I'm your host, will Richardson today we've got Robert McLaughlin on from Manatee Fresh. They are importing flowers into the US, into Florida, and then across the US from Ecuador, and Colombia, and we touch upon the environmental impact of flowers and what impact it does have, and how we can make a difference on what it is that we're buying when we buy flowers. And whether you are in the US or the UK, the same strategy, the same education is there. It's understanding what to buy, and how to buy it. And knowing who you're buying off makes a big difference because that will help you make informed decisions and also help with that systemic change that we are desperately needing across businesses. I just have one to give a warm welcome to you Robert. And I wonder if you could just give us a bit of an understanding about who you are and what your organisation does? please.

Robert McLaughlin 01:24
Yeah. Good morning, Will. Thanks for having me on. So Manatee Fresh is, we are local growers, importers, and wholesalers for the floral industry in the US. We sell to wholesalers nationwide, who sell to retailers. And then in the state of Florida, we also sell to retailers ourselves. And we also sell to supermarkets.

Will Richardson 01:46
I'm really looking forward to understanding more about just the flower industry. And I know it's talked about a lot here in the UK, and the environmental cost they can have. And could you tell us a bit about your purpose and who you work with?

Robert McLaughlin 02:07
Yeah, so, you know, we work with a lot of farms that grow in the US as well as farms that grow in mainly Ecuador and Colombia, because we're on this side of the hemisphere. So we do import, we do, you know, grow locally, selling again to supermarkets. Yeah. And we mainly work with just certified sustainable farms, which is an important aspect of our business.

Will Richardson 02:35
And when you say certified sustainable farms, what sort of certification are we looking at here?

Robert McLaughlin 02:41
Yeah, so there are several. There's the Fairtrade certification that I think you're probably familiar with the Mac's have lower in, in Europe, I believe the UK as well. We also work with Rainforest Alliance, we've ensured that every farm is certified in multiple certifications. We really don't deal with a farm that has say just one, there's for Ecuador, there's paloverde out of Colombia. We kind of do a gap analysis of all the certifications and make sure that they hit the key points that we want, not just that they're environmental, but they're also socially responsible. And you know, we kind of look at the custody chain of the product, as well as it's going through the distribution model.

Will Richardson 03:25
And our standards as high elsewhere, do you find that standards can be quite different in different countries?

Robert McLaughlin 03:34
Maybe not in different countries, but I think in different certifications. So if you take Rainforest Alliance, it's very much an environmental standard and set of standards. And you look at something like Fairtrade, it's more involved in, you know, the social aspects of workers, and workers rights. So, you know, we kind of look at it from that aspect.

Will Richardson 03:58
We hear a lot about these certifications. And I think, in the UK, people as it's not that they're questioning, say, the rain forest lines or their trade, but they're saying, do they go far enough? Is it good enough? I mean, do you have an opinion on that?

Robert McLaughlin 04:17
I do not think they go far enough. And I do think they have very much become businesses that are, you know, that are about money and certifying farms. So I personally visit all the farms that we do business with to make sure that they meet our internal, you know, company standards. And we use those certifications as starting points as a set of standards that at least they need to adhere to. I think the certifications are good. You know, they all have their little gaps. If you take in the US USDA Organic, for instance. Well, that only addresses how you grow the plant that doesn't address the runoff of organic chemicals into you know streams that can fill well. Life and suffocate, you know, other vegetations up and down a string, you know, so any one certification itself is in my opinion not good enough but not to say anything negative about them because I think they are steps in the right direction and they do serve a purpose and that is identifying a certain set of standards and at least you know, they adhere to that, then you can move from there.

Will Richardson 05:25
Your standard operating procedures must be, I was gonna say a nightmare, because of the intricacies and the cross-pollination with the, and the person having to deal with your quality control, we'll be looking at all of them almost side by side, but then having your own within it as well.

Robert McLaughlin 05:44
Yeah, Yeah, it does. And it takes a lot of time of visiting farms and, and relationships with farm owners and ensuring that, you know, they have, you know, the best interest of their workers, the environment, and the local ecology surrounding their farm. So, again, you know, certifications are great, but there can be some bad things that happen at a certified farm. So you have to know who you're dealing with.

Will Richardson 06:10
And you find the relationships are actually almost more powerful, because over time, you'll build that relationship and that trust, and therefore, you'll work together on trying to improve that environmental awareness or the social governance, etc.

Robert McLaughlin 06:29
Yeah, you think they're very important, but I will say with some of the certifying bodies that they have put a lot of work into outlining the standards, auditing the standards, I think it's a critical piece of it, for sure.

Will Richardson 06:44
I'm more thinking about your relationship with your suppliers. So when you go to visit your farms in Ecuador, that relationship is probably almost more powerful and more important, because they could potentially be turning to you to ask for advice about what they could be doing better or differently.

Robert McLaughlin 07:04
Yeah, just a real quick story as to you know, how that can be important. I was visiting a farm who is USDA-certified organic. And as I got to the farm, the grower was late for our meeting. So I'm walking around the loading dock and warehousing area and I see a refrigeration unit that's turned off, which is not uncommon, usually, you turn them on during peak seasons, and they're off but so I stuck my head in to take a look and see, you know, kind of what was in this dark, you know, cooler refrigeration unit and turn the light on my phone on. And inside were a bunch of stacks of wood pallets with blankets and pillows where their immigrant labour was sleeping, this is where they put their workers in a moldy, dark cooler. So, you know, I imagine consumers in a supermarket thinking they're buying something wholesome because it's USDA-certified organic. And yet the atrocities against you know, migrant workers in the fields, that certification doesn't cover that. So you really need to understand the heart and soul of the grower and what they're thinking.

Will Richardson 08:13
And how would, if someone was to be setting up and starting off on a journey similar to yours bit, flower import, or any other importing, what sort of key things would you say, to be looking for start off with?

Robert McLaughlin 08:30
Well, I would say, you know, first, visit where the product is coming from, build a relationship with the grower, you know, talk to the people in the fields, talk to the people packaging, look at any kind of internal processes they have, whether it's a formal certification, or whether it's how they handle you know, chemicals, do they give workers a proper training and safety equipment to do their job? There's a lot of things to really look at. And it starts with knowing where your product is from.

Will Richardson 09:01
Just yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And going on to the chemicals. I know, in the UK, we have our safety data sheets, and there's quite a lot of compliance around how you store them and how you use them. Is that more is also worldwide? And would you be able to look at stuff like that since Ecuador?

Robert McLaughlin 09:25
Yeah, and there are requirements with the various certifications on how they store and care for chemicals, agrochemicals, and none of the farms we work with can use chemicals banned by the USDA or the I'm sorry, FDA, or the World Health Organisation. So we make sure that you know, if there is an organic option available, we look for farms that are using that option.

Will Richardson 09:51
How did you get into selling flowers or importing flowers?

Robert McLaughlin 09:55
Yeah, it is. I started in 1984 working on my family's farm. So I started working in the hat. So, at the time, all I wanted to be was a grower, and we use some really nasty agro chemicals back in the 80s. So it really wasn't a thought in my mind. It wasn't until I started importing from farms in Ecuador and Colombia, seeing the workers there. My interest in sustainability started with, are these workers paid fair livable wages? And are they cared for? And as we developed into those type programmes, you look at you know, what's another way to take care of the workers? Well, don't spray them with nasty agrochemicals while they're out in the field. So then it kind of developed into an environmental concern and aspect as well.

Will Richardson 10:43
Interesting. And how do you engage your staff, suppliers, and customers with your mission and purpose? I mean, is it something that's to heart? And are you talking about this a lot?

Robert McLaughlin 10:56
Yeah, you know, we what our company tries to offer consumers, the end consumer, our choices that matter, we want to have transparency and our sources, this is where the product came from. This is how the workers have cared for this is how the environment is impacted. Here's the, you know, the steps we're taking to minimise that impact and footprint. And we want consumers to make decisions based on our brand, our company. So when they're looking to buy flowers, where do you want to buy them from, you know, vendor a, that who knows where they came from? Who knows that what, you know, environmental or social impact? Or here's supplier B, that is as transparent as possible through these measures. And, you know, really kind of informs consumers about sustainable Flora culture.

Will Richardson 11:50
Have you seen an appetite in your customers for this changed recently? Or over time? And what sorts of change? Have you seen, if any?

Robert McLaughlin 12:00
Yeah, I would say over the past 15 years, there was an appetite, there's a supermarket in the US called Whole Foods that kind of caters to the Eco lifestyle consumer that is kind of interested in things that are better for them, whether they're certified vegetables, or just Whole Foods in general, you know, I spent a lot of time trying to get farms certified to organic. And that has been a big challenge. In the organic movement, seems the consumers are more interested in the natural movement than the organic movement.

Will Richardson 12:33
And what's the difference between the two?

Robert McLaughlin 12:35
You know, just the organic movement? Well, one for flowers, people are more interested in organic food than organic flowers, because you're not eating flowers. So there is that aspect of it. But then also, you know, the more news media that pops out about, you know, poisoned baby food from China, or, you know, what have you around the world, people really start to look at the sustainable side of the business, not just organic.

Will Richardson 13:00
do you look at the carbon footprints, and we're talking about the environment here and talking about the environmental impact? Do you look at the carbon footprint of your organisation, and the freight that you're bringing in? And does that impact decision that you make?

Robert McLaughlin 13:16
It does very much, you know, flowers are a perishable item that has to move very fast. So they typically come in by air, which is probably one of the worst ways that you could, you know, move product around the globe. So we do a calculation of our carbon, you know, impacts on that level, and then we participate in a reforestation project that is basically a carbon offset as to what we put in so every year we'll take a look at and we'll try and evaluate how many miles did our trucks drive? How many boxes of flowers did we bring in, you know, via air, and we'll work with carbon fund.org and say, okay, help us calculate our carbon output. And then let's pick a project this year that we're going to participate in. And I think right now, we're involved in a not in a direct way. But when we invest carbon, we buy carbon credits into a reforestation programme. And then we're also looking at bringing flowers in by ship versus sea. It's a new project that I've been working on this year. It's actually I've been working on it for two years, but we're about two weeks away from seeing that happen.

Will Richardson 14:28
And it's and it's possible to happen even because you were talking about it taking having to be quick to go from point A to point B.

Robert McLaughlin 14:37
Yeah, so obviously Mexico is a trading partner of ours. To ship from a farm deep in Mexico all the way around to Florida takes about seven days by truck, or we can fly it which it comes overnight. But we've now found a shipping line that is coming across to the west coast of Florida where we're located and is taking two and a half days by sea, and it goes in a refrigerated container. So we're in the testing process of that right now. And that should cut carbon emissions by 20%.

Will Richardson 15:15
Brilliant. That sounds great. And what would you say your single biggest challenge or frustration was with regards to carbon footprinting and getting your organisation to be more environmental?

Robert McLaughlin 15:30
You know, I'd say the biggest challenges that because it's a perishable product, things have to ship fast. Because of environmental growing issues, flowers grow better in Ecuador, on the equator, above 9000 feet, for roses, for example. It can't be easily reproduced in a local growing area. So you know, we grow things local, like sunflowers that are easy to grow. But the key crops that the consumers want, unfortunately, come from long distances.

Will Richardson 16:02
You should be bringing them in from the UK, we've got lots of roses.

Robert McLaughlin 16:08
A lot. A lot of your roses come from Africa, though.

Will Richardson 16:11
It's probably because I mean, if you over a certain height, then it makes sense, doesn't it because we're that much further north and it is colder. So we probably got a similar temperature and similar climates away in Ecuador. And yours, although theirs is probably more temperate and more stable than hours.

Robert McLaughlin 16:33
Yeah, it grows very large-headed roses. So being on the equator, you get 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of the night each day, consistently year-round. But you also have you're growing above 9000 feet above sea level, that makes a big difference and the head size of the rose. And then bring up that high, you also cut through several atmospheres, so you get an intensity of light that just grows much more brilliant colours.

Will Richardson 17:02
Okay. And do you need to be using pesticides? We hear a lot about the chemicals used? And you would you be able to grow flowers without using anything at all other than completely natural things like snail, I guess?

Robert McLaughlin 17:19
Yeah, you can. We are growing right now a flower called zinnias. And I'm, I'm fighting a, an insect called a cutworm right now. And so we started out treating the plants with soapy water. And that gets rid of a lot of pests, different stages. So that's obviously completely organic. As we had a little hard time on zinnias, which worked well on sunflowers on zinnias, it's been a challenge. So I had to move up to an organic pesticide that's just a little bit stronger. And it gets multiple applications of it. You know, if you get an infestation, it's a challenge to find it organically, it's very easy to walk out with a synthetic chemical, agrochemical, and just wipe everything out and move on. If you want to grow it organically, you have to take the extra time. And the key is really not letting nature get out of balance, not letting them're getting a massive infestation. So I was in Ecuador last week, so it kind of got out of control while I was heading to town. But you know, we continue to find it organically, it can be done. And of course, if you have a large commercial growing operation with plenty of agronomists on hand, there are a number of organic commercial farms around the world.

Will Richardson 18:36
Because some would say that flower growing isn't the most environmental thing to be doing. And I myself and, I'm someone who does buy flowers, so I'm quite happy to be reprimanded here and told and untold off. So therefore I'm not asking these questions to be contentious. I'm asking these questions to be, you know, just to ask really, how do you feel about that?

Robert McLaughlin 19:02
I don't think that they are any more environmentally challenging to grow flowers versus vegetables and produce. But I do think it's not as regulated, you know, as some other industry. So I think that's an opportunity, and has been an opportunity for myself and 20 years to try and help convert traditional floriculture to sustainable floriculture. You know, there is there's still a worldwide demand for it. So it's about how can we make a positive impact within this industry.

Will Richardson 19:33
And I mean, on the flip side, the farms that you're talking about, they're over 9000 feet in Ecuador. Could they be growing something else? Because if they couldn't then you are supporting a livelihood?

Robert McLaughlin 19:49
Could they grow something else probably not at that altitude, not successfully on a commercial level. So I will say that the floral industry has been somewhat of a jewel of the agriculture community in Colombia and Ecuador in that it's helped a lot of rural towns grow things when there was nothing else to grow. So a lot of the certified farms will employ over 65-60-65% women, which is very empowering to women in these small communities and villages. So that's been a very positive aspect. And, you know, again, it's given the small communities an exportable crop where before, you know, they had a lot of workers were driving into the big city to be truck drivers or, you know, different jobs. So it's brought a lot of economic benefit to these rural communities.

Will Richardson 20:42
That doesn't surprise me. So that's kind of why I was asking because in the environment doesn't stop at the environment, months, as in the soil. The environment is everything around us, isn't it? It's the people, it's the way that we, we are with each other. And we can't be blinkered and only think about a particular aspect of it, we need to think about the whole, the whole picture.

Robert McLaughlin 21:05
Yeah, our company looks at sustainability as there are three pillars to sustainability. And so everything that we do, we make sure that it meets those three criteria. One, is it environmentally friendly, two is it socially responsible, and then three is it economically sustainable, is it you know, it's one thing to get up on a soapbox and preach to the world. But if you go out of business, you can't do any more good. So we have to balance those three aspects to make sure we continue to do good in our industry.

Will Richardson 21:36
I think that's, I mean, you've probably heard of B Corp, haven't you? But we were a B Corp. And that resonates very much with me and possibly resonates quite a lot with many of our listeners as well because we talk about that kind of thing quite a lot on the show. Is there anything that you would like to, you know, anything else to share about any of the trials and tribulations that you've had, through trying to get change or have changed within farms?

Robert McLaughlin 22:07
Yeah, so I've spent 15, or maybe 20 years focusing on sustainability at the farm level. I used to serve on a council for a sustainability seal that was later purchased by Fairtrade or somebody but, you know, worked very hard at the farm level. And I think now I work very hard on the consumer level, we want to offer choices that matter to consumers. And we want these consumers to understand that their choices do matter. They need to support farms that are certified Fairtrade or rain forest or really learn about the company that you're buying things from. The certifications are a great indicator, but you know, as a consumer, that's not it, if you can learn more about the brand, we want to put forth again that transparency, where our products come from, and you know, what they represent through the chain. And the choices that they make with their dollars, where they spend their dollars are going to decide whether these causes are going to be successful or not very challenging, working from the farm up, it almost has to be a consumer demand down and say we are only going to purchase things that we feel are good for humanity and good for the environment, and have similar like values that we have as shoppers.

Will Richardson 23:33
And that comes down to educating the consumer, doesn't it? And how do we do that? I've had a number of conversations with journalists over the last few years about this very subject, because quite a lot of journalists are not educated enough themselves. And that's no disrespect to them. Because we have made them become a jack of all trades and a master of none, because we refuse to pay for news anymore. So therefore, these poor journalists are looking to be paid a living. But yeah, we won't pay them, but we expect them to be amazing, and really, really good at what they do. And I think it's very, I think it's very tricky.

Robert McLaughlin 24:14
There's a very good point. So you know, we have invested a lot in marketing and technology in order to reach the consumer. So we are putting in supermarket flower shops, touchscreen devices, to where the intention of it is to attract a consumer who is walking by the flower shop. So we want them to see a nice, you know, video of a rose field in Ecuador, or, you know, tulips in Holland, and so it attracts them to come into the flower shop. It engages them in a touchscreen experience where they can click on different videos and learn more about flowers. They can learn more about sustainable floriculture they can email that information to their phone So it's about attracting, engaging, and informing shoppers about Flora culture, sustainable floral culture, and why it's important.

Will Richardson 25:08
I think that's great. I think that's, that's actually a really good place to be educating your consumer right at the heart of that purchasing decision. And massively powerful as well, I would imagine, because if you had the choice between two different suppliers, and one of them's educating you on why you shouldn't buy the other, which is basically what you're doing but not saying don't buy the other, then it's, it's kind of like a no brainer as well.

Robert McLaughlin 25:36
Yeah, we basically just want to, you know, have that transparency in our sourcing and let those consumers, you know, make their own decision with that information.

Will Richardson 25:46
I think humans are incredibly powerful. And I think they do intrinsically, on the whole, make the right decisions. Because you hear a lot about doom and gloom about everything. And I think a lot of that doom and gloom can come out of the fact that when you're asking someone to make a decision on something they don't know anything about. They're no more than likely going to make the wrong decision because they don't know anything about it.

Robert McLaughlin 26:11
Exactly. And, you know, and in this, this new world, with social media, and you know, all of the information available at your fingertips, I think consumers like to be more informed about what it is that they're doing. And it's up to us as companies to reach out to them and make sure the proper information is available to them. Because there's a lot of bad information out there as well.

Will Richardson 26:35
Yeah, no, absolutely. Brilliant. Thank you so much for today. It's been really interesting talking to you and understanding more about the flower industry. Really, what I'm taking away from this is, it's as the consumer that can make the difference by deciding on what it is that we're buying. And we should be looking more at organic flowers than just going there flowers. It's okay.

Robert McLaughlin 27:00
Yeah, I agree. I think you should be looking at the companies you're buying a product from whether it's coffee, produce flowers, what have you just educate yourself a little bit on where's this product coming from? And, you know, what does that look like? And what does it represent?

Will Richardson 27:16
Brilliant, where we can find out more about Manatee.

Robert McLaughlin 27:19
Yeah so, you can go to manatee fresh.com. There's some information on our company, and then also links and to some of the different flower certifying bodies. So there's more information there as well.

Will Richardson 27:32
Thank you very much for today. We'll be putting all of those links on the website. It's been really informative. And thank you so much for that.

Robert McLaughlin 27:40
Great, thank you, Will.

Will Richardson 27:42
and thanks for listening to the Sustainable Business podcast. If you want to learn more about sustainable business and talk to other like-minded professionals, why not join our online community at sustainabilitysolved.org. Join now and find a space to collaborate, learn and inspire others to become more environmental. And if you enjoy the podcast, make sure you subscribe, so you get every episode. And don't forget to follow Green Element on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.