Season 3, Episode 115 : Phil Korbel

Will Richardson 00:02
Phil, welcome to the Green Element Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. Now you are one of the two founders for the Carbon Literacy Project.

Phil Korbel 00:13
Indeed.

Will Richardson 00:15
Could you please tell us a bit more about what the Carbon Literacy Project is, please?

Phil Korbel 00:20
Well, where do I start? Back in the day, our social enterprise was involved in Manchester's first Climate Action Plan. And Manchester has a heck of a heritage. We always have back to 1782, where if you stood in front of Manchester Cathedral, looking up Shude Hill, you would see this construction as a mill was being built. And this iron object was being bolted onto the side of the mill. And it was this guy, Richard Arkwright as the first person to have a steam powered cotton mill in a city. And in terms of Manchester becoming the first modern urban city in that way, we feel we've got a bit of an obligation to the world, because of our role in establishing that awkward relationship with fossil fuels. So we were thinking about how Manchester could lead, we were thinking about what was missing in the equation, because needless to say, this is a huge stakeholder process and ideas and policies, tech, we're all flying in. And there was a moment in one of these oak panelled Gothic committee rooms in the town hall in Manchester, where it was clear that we had the technology, we had the policy ideas, but there's a huge Gulf on engagement. In business terms, we'd set up the supply side and ignore the demand side. There was no one at any level at any scale, who would say yep, I'm going to write a check for this. I'm going to vote for this. So we identified this chasm of engagement. And in the middle of this meeting, I packed up and went, well, we need Manchester to be carbon literate. Everyone went, "yeah, yeah, great idea! Absolutely". And it became a big audacious goal of the plan. I think I knew what we meant at the time, in that we needed a large scale culture shift. We're acting on climate change became just mainstream, where that recognition just came through. But not just that the means to do that become clear, as well. So we needed a large scale culture shift, which we labelled: carbon literacy. And then we cracked on with filling in the detail behind the headline.

Will Richardson 02:58
And your backgrounds isn't sustainability, is it? The environment? You've got a rather chequered history? Which makes it I think, much more, you're much more well rounded? Because you've seen lots of different parts of society, I guess.

Phil Korbel 03:16
Yeah. Yeah. So my first career was with an organisation called the British Broadcasting Corporation. After serving time in local radio, I ended up making documentaries for radio four in the light, which was a fantastic young person's career, which inadvertedly led me to riding a tandem back from Sydney to raise awareness and money for rain forest conservation. It was a situation where I'd made a documentary about two people doing the same and thought, I don't want to be a reporter on this anymore. I want to do it. And then fortunately, or unfortunately, someone enabled us to do this and spent 20 months having my brain and other parts of me rewired during this extraordinary journey, which turned me from that I was a signed up member of the local Friends of the Earth Group, you know, save the whales, save the trees, save the shrimp.

Will Richardson 04:16
I think you had it all inside you.

Phil Korbel 04:18
Yeah, absolutely. That was there. But you travel in the global south. You meet people outside of the tourist traps, and you can't help but be fundamentally changed by that. You recognise the the innate connection between hitting our environmental goals and the economy. It's absolutely essential, you know, livelihoods, just transition however you want to frame it. It's all absolutely part of it. And that happened to me in the course of that journey, recognising the broadest interpretation of sustainable development. And it came back, got back into radio. But again, by convoluted route started looking at how people's use and access of radio could tackle poverty and multiple forms of disadvantage, which led to setting up a charity to establish community radio stations in disadvantaged areas of the UK. So that was my leap from mainstream media into the world of social enterprise, basically. And we spent a while trying to establishing stations, learning what made a sustainable social enterprise, but looking much more at the sort of urban regeneration and economic and social sides of sustainable development, I'd say.

Will Richardson 05:53
And communications is quite a big part of the carbon literacy project. I mean, it's kind of, it's in its name, isn't it?

Phil Korbel 06:00
Yes.

Will Richardson 06:01
Do you think that the fact that you used to work for community radio, and you understand communications probably very well, definitely better than me, I know that for a fact. Because I know, that's one of our weaknesses as an environmental management consultancy? Do you think it's helpful?

Phil Korbel 06:23
Helpful? No. Essential? Yes. If you can't frame the message around Sustainable Development and Environment, in terms of the values and priorities of the person you're talking to, you're not going to get through it's common sense. So you have to get back to the basics of communication, of connection, and relating what you've got to say, to the values and idioms and cultures of the person you're talking to. And I suppose throughout those first two careers, that became just part of what I did. And a vital part of carbon literacy is taking the climate message out of the environmental niche. And getting it into the mainstream. I'm sure if you're listening to this, you'd probably qualify as being a resident of that niche. And of the many, many members of that community that I speak to the common thread is that I'm in a corner, I'm tucked away in a department within my organisation. And I'm always, always struggling for greater bandwidth greater, better foothold, better resources, better recognition for the priorities, the urgency of what we're trying to achieve. And often carbon literacy is seen as a great route to getting that message through into an organisation.

Will Richardson 08:10
I came across you guys through Protect Our Winters, which is a charity based and we're based in the US but also have the UK arm. And you, I've never really heard of this way of doing things before where Protect Our Winters had kind of written the course on the back of your course, and are delivering it with their audience in mind, using your skills and expertise behind the scenes. It's a really clever way. And also it's really cost-effective as well, isn't it? For organisations because it means you really are just trying to help people become carbon literate. I mean, that's...

Phil Korbel 08:58
It's absolutely what we're about this has to be stalable. It would have been great to say, yeah, we've we've made the City of Manchester carbon literate and great and utterly pointless on the scale of resolving the climate crisis. Obviously, this has got to be something that can travel and travel and travel. Both Dave Coleman, my co director, co founder of the organisation, we've got a load of experience in training. We love training. And the one thing we have to forbid ourselves doing was delivering training. This had to be about establishing a framework for the enabling of meaningful, consistently relevant, practical climate empowerment, climate training, however you want to call it. So it had to be very, very stalable. That's the word. I'm stretching for. That that was vital from the outset. So we designed a flexible framework for a day's worth of training. We worked with a working group, cross disciplinary working group of about 30 folk to devise this methodology which lies at the heart of what we do. And that can be used by anyone. So whether it's our winter sports friends, adapting this framework for their people, whether it's primary school kids, whether it's leaders of local councils, GPs, I mean, seriously, that the range of folks that have taken it up now, as they're proven it's worth in terms of its adaptability. And generally, what people do is come to us and say, Yep, we'd like to design a course. And we say, well, here is the means by which you do it. Here's the frame, with the things that you need to do. The frame within which you put your content, as well as the stuff we recommend to make it work for your people. So that's broadly how it works. That's also evolved for sectors. So we're looking at sector wide toolkits, as well.

Will Richardson 11:23
Brilliant, and you've got some amazing, good news stories about some of the outcomes of some of the early courses, haven't you? I'm thinking of council in particular, are you allowed to talk about?

Phil Korbel 11:38
No names, no pack drill, if that's all right. Well, but um, yeah.

Will Richardson 11:41
That's absolutely fine. It's this book about it, then definitely talked about it, there were no names, but it's, I think it just for me, really accentuated the point of how powerful such a course could be.

Phil Korbel 11:58
One of the great foundations of carbon literacy is that it motivates and empowers someone to utilise their best skills for this, this mission to tackle the climate crisis. So we have our first carbon literate Council Treasurer, who cheerfully admits that he was told to come on the training by his boss, and then came out. Oh, no, he really, really got it came out of the training. And a few days later, he went back to his team to do what council treasurer's do and he had to buy 30 bin lorries. And he said, right, I want 30 electric bill lorris and his team had to say, well, they don't quite exist yet. To which we, our Treasurer had to say, well, will they exist soon? Yep. Yeah, there's a prototype somewhere in the north trundling around, so if we buy 30 bin lorries diesel, even the best diesel there'll be obsolete soon. Yep. So I can't really buy 30 bin lorries like my procurement framework says, and they said, Nope. So he changed his procurement framework. So that you keep up with the latest technology and not been lumbered with 30 obsolete or soon to be obsolete trucks. So he changed his framework that way. And he did something similar with Sorry, I'm just gonna move from mine. And he did something similar with a school who wanted a new gas boiler, their boiler was broken down. And he put ground source heat pumps through a procurement process for the first time in that Council. And he was really proud. We nearly got it through. He says, if they hadn't just relayed the school playground, which of course would have had to be dug up again, for heat pumps, we could have got it through. There are myriad stories of the application of someone's existing skill set existing position to maximise their clout. One of the ones I'm proudest of most recently, was a financial director from a largish public sector organisation who went through her carbon literacy and came out. And I should say, at the end of every carbon literacy course you have to design the most significant actions you can do for yourself and for a group. And as this financial directors action, she put down that she would put her entire estate onto renewable power. And that's an estate of I think it was 138 sites. And she'd come to it relatively cold as well. So it's potential, not just to induce the climate change penny drop moment, with which you're familiar, but actually to move people on from that into meaningful action. So we've got a framework for that people can adapt it to their own. And that's absolutely crucial to its success. It's that trigger is the catalyst that moves it into the mainstream.

Will Richardson 15:18
And I think that's what's really, because most of our listeners will understand all about environmental training. I mean, we do environmental training, but we, the people that do the and I've got my hands up inverted commas, kind of environmental training, all people that actually understand environmental training. And this is why I got an I'm so excited about the carbon literacy project, because you've just named two examples in the we've got countless other ones. It is training for normal people that are you know, that actually, it helps everyone be able to understand sustainability as a whole, and the environment and has actions that come out of it. And I think that's what's so powerful. And it's accessible to, because it's accessible in so many different levels isn't it's accessible financially, but it's also accessible academically, and you don't need to go into it. Having had a master's in environments or having, having read about sustainability for years and years and years, you can go into it with a completely blank sheet of paper.

Phil Korbel 16:32
And that's our ideal learner. Some of our best advocates are people that have been mandated to join in, and they've had that moment of awareness-raising discovery. Or as we sometimes jokingly put it in the office, the "oh, crap! moment". Oh, no, this thing I've had the back of my mind and didn't really know. Nah, can't ignore it. Dammit, don't moment. And you could strand yourself there in the doom and gloom of climate change. But actually, that journey of realisation and empowerment enabling, that's vital. If you look on the front page of our website, carbonliteracy.com, at the bottom, we've got a marvellous vox pop from the BBC. The BBC have used the governance scale. And in the middle of it, there's this young, I don't know if he's an assistant producer, anyhow, young BBC person says: "by the middle of the training, you feel like a terrible human being". And then you spend the rest of the day finding out what you can do about it, you know, and that, to me, sums it up so well. You could strand someone in disabling pessimism and depression, as you well know with the climate message. So we match that with relevance, and most of all, loads of ideas that then the learner adapts to their own setting. So you know, it's absolutely crucial that that relevance is threaded all the way through, indeed, we insist on it, typically. So if you or another company were to come to us, you would be presented by the [cabinet, see the covenants, the standard] our core text, and you would have to design your training against it. And it's got the stuff you'd expect about the science of climate change, the potential impacts of inaction, some relevant policy, regulatory frameworks, and some of the core solutions. And you have to design training that incorporates that. But there's also methodology that insists on consistent relevance throughout an ideal course we'll start with an introduction from the boss or someone credible within the sector, saying that this is why it matters to us. We did a pilot GPs course on a hot day. And we were able to say to the GPs in that room, well, how does this change? What your colleagues will be doing back at the practice? Oh, we'll get many, many more people turning up down, you know. So that relevance is absolutely crucial. So much so that we have pretty much banned polar bears from carbon literacy. It's not that I've got anything against polar bears at all. It's, it's more that iconic megafauna can only take you so far in actually acting on this is very good at inducing doom and pessimism. You have to take people further you had to make the connection between who they are and what they value and given things to do, and that's all wrapped up in the cost design.

Will Richardson 20:08
Liberty, who you've met will absolutely love to hear what you've just said because she's banned it from our from all of our communications as well.

Phil Korbel 20:18
I used to dress up as a polar bear on demos, you know, they have their place, you know, it's not in our training, there really isn't? No, it's no, it's got to be about the nuts and bolts of what you do. One of my favourite examples of that happening, we were training some public sector chief executives for Andy Burnham, our mayor. And one of the learners was our Chief Constable. And we started that training by asking people what happened to their job in extreme weather. So I said to the Chief Constable, well, what happens to your job when he gets hot? He said, Well, I'm almost tempted to put on a dixneuf green voice, but he doesn't speak. He said, Listen, and I'll get in trouble. As I said, Well, yeah, we get more trouble. And so what do you mean, you get more trouble? Well, we get more violence, we get more stealing. And I said, Well, yeah. Okay. That's great canteen room bantery. And he said, no, that's not bad. We've got the data. All right. If you got the data, I said, what temperature does that start at? He says the graph swings upwards from 18 degrees centigrade. And the room went: Wow! So you actually get more trouble, more stretch in an overstretched police force from 18 degrees onwards, and all the other public sector bosses around the room. Okay. Well, I know what that means for me. So do you want more hot days? No, not really. You know, we're working with the fire services as well, in Greater Manchester. They get more call outs on extreme weather than they do for Guy Fawkes. This is part of your job, you know, so we can bring that home from the start in the middle at the end. It's absolutely crucial to the success of this thing.

Will Richardson 22:25
Yeah. And so where do you see yourself going over the next year, two years, three years, internationally? Where do you see yourself?

Phil Korbel 22:38
A couple of weeks ago, we clocked off 15,000 learners, Which for a small social enterprise, enough bad really proud of it. That should be it? Well, no, in our frame against the scale of the climate crisis is peanuts as a drop in the ocean. Know It, where we need to be replicating massively. We need to expand our network of organisations like us in different sectors, in different geographical areas. And we're doing this at the moment. One amazingly potent example is the UN have a network for the promotion of the SDGs in business schools globally, called PR me principles of responsible management education. And the prime as they call themselves, the prime network are disseminating carbon literacy across the odd hundred business schools across the world. Made a lot easier through our enforced use of zoom and teams based training. But that's, that's flying out. I think, as we record, Copenhagen Business School, are doing their first carbon literacy for students online session today as a result of that. So just spreading and spreading and spreading is the only thing to do. We've got great ambitions for cop 26. We're talking to one of the Glasgow universities about staging a carbon interesting school, a carbon, staging a carbon lunch, the school at COP 26 for the delegates there. Lots of short workshops showing off the best of carbon literacy across the many, many sectors where we work.

24:37
Just don't get the government involved. I shouldn't say it should I

24:52
Oh, good. Oh, good. It's always good to hear good stories about that's good and well, so What? What would you like? Cuz we've heard all about the carbon literacy projects, what would you like to have people taking away from this? I mean, we I mean, what I was thinking when I was talking to you initially was, they will be listeners in organisations that could disseminate this within their organisation. But on top of that, is there anything that you could think of that you'd like people to take away from?

Phil Korbel 25:30
I think there's a broader issue than carbon literacy is the importance of behaviour change in this overall process of train change that we're all trying to induce. It's very easy, particularly if you're very well qualified in environmental solutions, and technology to look to what I would call quick-fix solutions, necessary physical technical solutions, about thermostats about insulation, renewables, etc. But it's the realisation of how much more effective the take-up and use of those solutions are if there is an effective behaviour change in the mix. And that goes throughout an organisation and leadership shop floor in the supply chain, to know that, to be blunt, the returns on your investment are greater if you have effective behaviour change in the mix. We have so far not had the resource to properly quantify the carbon impacts of carbon literacy. I wanted desperately to do this at the outset. And the academics around the table rolled around in laughter saying, Phil, we've got to tell you something about the chain of attribution in research. And this is wildly complex, and you need a cast of thousands and a huge budget. And so we've not yet done that, but Jacobs engineering, the multinational has looked at what we do and compared it to other things where they have done measurements like this or the behaviour change initiatives. And they are happy to be quoted on that guesstimate that carbon literacy will save the average workplace, five to 15% energy, if supported appropriately, in its aftermath, etc. So it's just common sense that carbon literate occupants of a building carbon neutral workforce are going to save more energy and, and just do more that and that's within an organisational level. But I think the importance of behaviour change is massively ramped up by what's going on around us now with the pandemic. Today, we read of the political giant, that is Nigel Faraj hoisting his flag to the anti-lockdown banner. I am facepalming. Matt, no, this point, I need to stress that the people that I'm out of confirmation bias or sheer opportunism that would derail climate action? I think we're getting a little snapshot of that in the anti lockdown anti mask. stuff that we see at the fringes of what's going on now, there was certainly slowed down what's going on on the COVID response. So effective, meaningful stakeholder-led behaviour change is all the more essential if we're going to bring on the rapid large scale responses that we need to the climate crisis.

Will Richardson 28:51
Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for explaining more about carbon literacy projects. It's so, I mean, it's just such a key part of what we need to do. And thank you for being, you know, helpful on that journey for everyone, really.

Phil Korbel 29:11
I only just started Will. There's a load more to say we launched in 2012. And I'm not gonna that wasn't a preamble to tell you the whole story. I know you need to wrap up. But there's an extraordinary collaborative network around this. I think anyone involved in Sustainable Development and Environment will recognise that sense of sharing. And that's massively there with the carbon literacy network as a whole hundreds of organisations who are willing to help the other. Our first footsie 100 companies is Autotrader. And they're very happy to help advocate for us. Talk of their journey of how it enhances what's already in a superb employer-employee experience for their staff, and how they brought on carbon literacy. But then we had another digital marketplace come to us, in another sector, completely different sector. And we had no one in their sector, we could introduce them to a lot of what we do is about saying, well talk to these folks see what they made of it. But then we said to Autotrader, well, you know, would you share some of what you've done with this lot? Yeah, of course, naturally can't come and see. So it grows through this amazing amount of sharing. And there are sectors also, who are, I should say, Sorry, there are companies who are now seeking to instigate sector wide shared resources for carbon literacy. There's a big company in the chemicals industry, for example, who are thinking about, well, we don't need every company in the chemical sector, to design their own course, let's come up with a toolkit where people can, can pick up and just use some shared resources, take away the need for cost design, and just crack on. So I think in terms of where we're going, the use of this toolkit sector-wide toolkit approach is also going to come on very strongly. That's what we're doing with the government. So Government Department Based have commissioned us to create shared carbon literacy training kits for central government, local government, the NHS, the emergency services, and universities. And these are everything you need off the shelf, to go and do your own carbon literacy training in those sectors. And we're hoping to use that methodology in the private sector as well.

Will Richardson 31:32
So trade associations would be interested in stuff like this as well, then?

Phil Korbel 32:02
Yes, absolutely vital. And ones where this might be seen as contentious. So that they're, I don't want to name names, but there's some sectors where this is seen as yeah! contentious, not mainstream. So how would you use a suitably designed carbon literacy training scheme to get the message across that this is mission-critical to us. And the pace of change is so fast and necessary. And this is how we, this is why we're doing it. And this is how you can get involved. One organisation, we talked to a multinational, who were working with us, they were hit by a Science-Based Target from head office. And they were like, whoa, that's huge! You know? So there was a left a bit reeling by this massively ambitious, great Science-Based Target, and then using common literacy to explain why that's happening and to mobilise.

Will Richardson 33:09
That's a really good idea.

Phil Korbel 33:09
So it's, it comes up in different frames, depending on the sector, depending on the organisation.

Will Richardson 33:21
Is that dissemination of knowledge, isn't it? That's just so important.

Phil Korbel 33:26
I was talking to an environmental lead for the local Catholic Diocese. And I was complimenting him on the Pope's encyclical that he brought up for the Paris Agreement. Marvellous! Wide-ranging treatise on the links between our care for the planet, the climate crisis, and the evils of capitalism. I say this as, as a non-religious person. So I was congratulating this priest on the great work of his boss. And he said, Phil, you've got to understand that we get a lot of messages from high office, they're met with a wave of passionate apathy. And I said, Yeah, I get it, I get it. And this is, how do you without knowledge of the relevance of that message from head office, - Doesn't have to be the Vatican any head office - why would the staff go: Yeah, bro. Yeah, fantastic! As a means of embedding the common sense of whether it's in cyclical or a science-based target. We know that that's where carbon literacy lives.

Will Richardson 34:47
Yeah, I think I think that science-based target and carbon literacy is such a nice partnership because we see so many organisations now, rather than sticking their fingers up in the air and going five, let's reduce by 5%, this year 10% next year, we can now actually say, right Science-Based Target achieves exactly what you want to achieve alongside the rest of the world. So, therefore, and so lots and lots of organisations do it. And we put them through that. But again, it's then once they've got that target, which is usually an ambitious target, and the senior management lead is then going right now in need to actually work out what to do and how to do it. And for that, to be a part of that journey is incredibly crucial.

Phil Korbel 35:47
We always say that, if you were sending firefighters into a burning building, you blooming well train them. We're facing a crisis. And the idea of sending untrained colleagues to tackle that crisis is just bonkers. So you have said that, that's almost the first stage of mobilisation is knowledge. And that knowledge has to include the framing, or the relevance of this thing, and the empowerment. And it comes back to a very human level, we get consistently good feedback from HR teams who do the post-training survey, etc, etc. And I'd love to do an in-depth interview with a sample of the learners because I think part of the positivity comes from a simple message within the training that here is your organisation empowering you to do something good. Now, regardless of the organisation, now, some organisations are there to do good in inverted commas. Others that might not be seen as part of the brief, but here in doing this carbon literacy training, okay, we've got climate change, this is what we're doing. What can you do? And here's your permission to do this, as well. So I think that's part of why it's so consistently popular.

Will Richardson 37:14
Hmm, that makes sense. That makes sense. Is there anything you want to add?

Phil Korbel 37:20
No, you know, what? Finish?

Will Richardson 37:24
No, no, it's fine. I think it's brilliant that you are, yeah, that you have so much talk about this, because, and you can hear the passion in your voice. And you can hear that once and need to be able to help more people. It's, and that's, and that's really important. And I guess, I'm really lucky because I get to talk to people like yourselves, that have that desire to help change the way that we are. And we're seeing a massive change at the moment. And it's only getting stronger, as I mean, you guys are really busy. We're really busy. And it's just for the first time in my 20 year history. I'm actually quite positive about what's going on now. And I don't think it's too late either. I actually don't think it's too late. Which is what's also quite nice.

Phil Korbel 38:20
Yeah. Have you tell people what date we're recording this?

Will Richardson 38:26
All right. Yeah, we recorded it on the it's the day before the election? Yeah. Is it today's today? Is the keep up? I thought it was tomorrow. I'm sure I read somewhere. It's the second of November. Yeah. So, it's the third of November.

Phil Korbel 38:46
So yeah...

Will Richardson 38:47
To be honest with you, whatever happens there, I don't think it actually makes a difference. Because they, the people actually care they do. And so I don't think it matters who's in power now. And I think this is where this is going to become a bigger and bigger divide. And this is where politicians need to be very careful, because they are not in control anymore. that people are going actually we can be in charge of our own destiny, and we will do what we want to do. And there seems to be a divide that is happening. And there are people that seem to sit inside that politics guy Oh no, we should do what our policies and say but on the whole people are using their brains and their heart and they're just being pragmatic about the situation go worth most, you know, turn off our lights.

Phil Korbel 39:44
But even in strictly business framing, um, why would you be fossil fuel-powered when solar is cheaper? Yep, it's so many moments of good It doesn't matter. You know, it If Trump is trying to prop up the coal industry for votes, if solar panels are cheaper, it doesn't matter what he does. And similarly, big employers reliant on the best young talent know that their organisations need to be organisations with purpose. So even totally cynically, they have to start walking the walk on this if they are to commercially survive, because, without that young talent, they're dead in the water.

40:28
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, exactly. I mean, RBS or NatWest group have quite openly gone, we're not we are not investing any more into fossil fuels. When they are, they've made a significant change in the way they do things. And they're not the only banks. And these are massive, massive multinational banks across the globe. And they're all saying the same things. So I will either be run by corporates in 20 years time, or the politicians will have caught up.

Phil Korbel 41:00
Yeah, stay tuned.

Will Richardson 41:03
Actually, there's a really good TV series on at the moment on the BBC. About what I think five years time. I can't remember what's called we watched the first episode last night. It's actually really quite depressing.

Phil Korbel 41:14
Is it Years and Years?

Will Richardson 41:16
Yes, yeah.

Phil Korbel 41:17
Hopeless. Russell T. Davies, Manchester writer. Yeah, actually, I'm talking to you from about 400 metres from Nan's house in where there is a matriarch in the series for those seen. It's actually shot in my neighbourhood weirdly, now is a massive must view if entirely depressing.

Will Richardson 41:42
Yeah, we want we wanted to watch it because we wanted to be uplifted. We thought, Oh, we know some of those people that live quite good fun. We literary watching it: oh, my words, this is really quite depressing! And it was the fact that the first one that goes all the way through what's gonna happen.

Phil Korbel 42:00
The edit has marvelous quotable quotes, which are misquoted now, there's a moment where they're all sat around watching TV news and one of them says: "I remember when I thought the news is boring, I long for boring news.

Will Richardson 42:15
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's brilliant. Yes. So definitely watch. What's that? What's it called, again?

Phil Korbel 42:21
Years and Years.

Will Richardson 42:22
Years and Years. And there you go.

Phil Korbel 42:24
On my player.

Will Richardson 42:26
Yes. Brilliant. Phil, thank you so much for today.

Phil Korbel 42:29
You're very well, thanks for inviting me, Will. Real pleasure.

Will Richardson 42:32
Now really, really good to hear more about what it is that you guys do and how you do it.