Season 5, Episode 195 : Leading a 27,000-Person Company to Net Zero: Practical Lessons from OpenReach (Abby Chicken)

Will: [00:00:00] happy new year. Welcome to Sustainability Solved podcast where our mission is to help you solve sustainability problems in your organization. I'm your host, Will Richardson, Founder and Chief Purpose and Innovation Officer of Green Element Group.
Will: And as ever, I'm joined by Charlie Luxton, one of the most esteemed, amazing,
Charlie: ha, ha! Woooah!
Will: architects in the world.
Charlie: Designer people! Thanks Will, happy new year!
Will: You too, you too, if you haven't had a, if you had a lovely time, what have you, I want you to go into details of exactly what you've been doing over the last two weeks.
Charlie: Uh, a lot, uh, [00:01:00] hosting a lot of people. Uh, I, I've had an enormous amount of family staying, uh, well a lot of washing up. I'm not sure these hands will quite recover for a while. A lot of washing up, a lot of, a lot of hosting, a lot of fun. Very
Will: Brilliant.
Charlie: Yeah.
Charlie: What about you? What have you been up to?
Will: well, I'm not going to say that I've been doing loads of washing up because that means that Laura will hold me to that. So, I'm sure Kate will now hold you to her doing all that washing up. Uh, we, uh, I've just been skiing in the Alps, we drove, I'm really excited, I'm actually really excited, let's not pretend that we've just had the last two weeks because we are having to record this before Christmas and
Charlie: Oh, now I look like a big
Will: No, no you don't,
Charlie: be doing a lot of washing up, by the way,
Will: no you don't, no you don't, but um, I'm just really really, we leave tomorrow and we, are driving to Newcastle then catching a ferry from Newcastle to Amsterdam and then driving to the Alps and actually I'm so looking forward to it because, I just really want a break [00:02:00] and I think it'd be really good fun.
Will: We're spending time with my two brothers and my kinder sister Kelly and, yeah, it's gonna be amazing with all of our families.
Charlie: Excellent. So let's talk about today's podcast. Uh, the reason I wanna talk about that is 'cause I've been reading a great book. I, I know we like talking about books, so I, I've been reading this great new book, which I, I, and I think it's really relevant to what we're gonna talk about today, which is, Openreach, which is a huge organization, but the book I've been reading, and the reason that I bring that up is.
Charlie: It's been, it's a great book called How to Get Big Things Done by, and I'm going to mangle this name, Bent Flyverberg and Dan Gardner. And basically this guy did a big project for the Danish government, billion euro project for the Danish government.
Charlie: 20 years ago or something, and it spent the following 20 years studying massive projects, billion pound projects, how they work and critically how they fail and why they fail. And it's [00:03:00] absolutely fascinating. And jaw dropping. The Montreal Olympics went 768 percent or something like that over budget.
Will: wow.
Charlie: Extraordinary.
Will: And was there a reason why?
Charlie: uh, yeah, just terrible planning. And he sets it all out. It's a really great book for anyone who does any kinds of projects, because actually it's relevant for little projects. And he's, he's very good at that. They talk about big scale things, but also just like unpick a simple renovation job that went horribly wrong and why.
Charlie: And there's just some great stuff in there. And. And what's really nice about it is obviously we do lots of projects running in architecture practice, and I've learned these things that we try and do, and I try and get the team to do, and he just sets it out incredibly clearly, rationally, and analyzes it.
Charlie: And it's, it's apt. And I'm, I'm coming in sort of beginning every week and telling the team what I've read and why, and going, right, this is why we do this. And this guy puts, it's just a great book. So that's how to get big things done. That's my sort of New Year's resolution for people listening. [00:04:00] Read that.
Will: It's funny because I immediately thought, and actually it's, um, I met up with, um, Abby, our guest, a few weeks ago, we were both in an event, um, speaking at an event and she, recommended a book all about materials and it's all about the different materials around the world and what they're used for and where they come from and why they're running out and it reminds me in some ways what the book you've just talked about because it's connected like big projects use a lot of materials and that ties into that so it's quite a nice little
Charlie: Segway. Little segway. What's that book called?
Will: And I was trying to think about what it was called.
Charlie: to remember what it was called, weren't
Will: what? You need to ask Abby because she, she thought it was amazing and I do really want to read it. And actually, a few other people recently have actually said to read it. Um,
Charlie: about stuff book. That's, that's a note [00:05:00] that I'll, yeah, materials book, that I'll bring up in the interview.
Will: Yeah. And we got an amazing email from a guy called Adam this week. And it was asking us about whether we do production,podcast, i. e. looking at the production of TV, so relatable to you and your career as well, Charlie. And because we work very closely with the Advertising Association, and we've got them coming on in, I think, February, and they have We Are Albert, and they actually use Compare Your Footprint.
Will: We Are Albert does the production stuff, and Compare Your Footprint does the rest. And It was, it was nice to hear that that was an idea that they had, that someone, one of our listeners has had to look at the production. And what I thought was fascinating was he started listening to us because Debra Medan's podcast has stopped.
Charlie: Right.[00:06:00]
Will: And actually I was chatting to Debra, I'm gonna, this is very loosely, Medan, about, A year and a half ago, two years ago, and asked her if she wanted to come on the podcast and she We didn't get anywhere with it because she was really busy with her own podcast and also, Dragon's Den.
Charlie: So just to be clear, she does a sustainable, was doing a sustainability podcast on the BBC.
Will: that's right. And apparently they stopped, they stopped that. So I'm gonna ask her if she wants to come on to the podcast because I think she'd be brilliant with all of the knowledge that she has from that podcast and from business as well.
Charlie: No, that'd be great. I didn't know she was focused in that area.
Will: It was a really good podcast. It was a really good podcast.
Charlie: to it, Debra, so if you ever listen to this, I apologize for not listening to your podcast. Don't take it personally, and hopefully we'll get you on.
Will: So this week's guest is a lady called Abby chicken, and she's coming from. OpenReach. Will, you know Abby, what's she going to tell us about?
Will: I think one of the things about Abbey is, [00:07:00] A, she's been in sustainability for a very long time, but not only that, she gets it, she understands it, and she understands business and sustainability, and understands the importance of integrating sustainability into one's business, and she's very articulate in the way that she talks about it as well.
Charlie: So there's a whole thing, isn't there, about funding these days and the financial sort of world and how that's starting to lean into sustainability within business structures, which, which is a really fascinating area that I'm sure she's got a lot to say about, given the size of the company that she, she's trying to transition.
Charlie: I mean, they, there's something like over about 30, 000 people or something crazy like that in OpenReach, isn't there? I mean, this is a vast organization. And that's a huge challenge, isn't it? To get that many people. To understand their role in changing company to net zero. So you're going to have all different kinds of people, aren't you?
Charlie: Fast adopters, slow adopters, laggers, advocates. And I imagine she's got a lot to, to say [00:08:00] about, about that and how you, how you get that internal communication going. I think, I think that's something that's very interesting to hear more about.
Will: Well, I think one of the things that she, and I, I mean, no disrespect to other people in our industry, but we need more people that are like Abby in our industry.
Charlie: what way?
Will: She gets business, understands business, and is very pragmatic about the whole journey and inverted commas of sustainability.
Charlie: So she doesn't let perfect be the enemy of very good.
Will: Yeah, I guess so. I don't know what that means, but yes, I'm going to say that's a yes.
Charlie: Well, you know the phrase, you know, don't let, don't let perfect be the enemy of very good. It's like, just because it doesn't solve everything in one hit, if it's a really
Will: Oh, yeah,
Charlie: it's a really good
Will: yeah. But she's not driven by only passion. You have an awful lot of well intentioned people in our industry that are passion driven
Will: and actually don't really have a scooby about business.
Will: Actually, [00:09:00] she's very much got both.
Will: should we get started? See what you've got to say.
Will: Let's do that.
Will:
Charlie: Abby, welcome to the Sustainability Solved podcast. It's lovely to have you here. Now you work for OpenReach or BT
Abby: No, not BT open reach, open reach.
Charlie: Just OpenReach.
Charlie: So what is the connection with BT
Abby: Uh, okay. So, um, BT is our parent company. So BT group, we are a subsidiary of BT group, but we are commercially independent. so effectively, because back in 2018, the government wanted everyone to level up and help everyone have access to broadband, uh, the way to do that was to simulate competition, so they made open reach independent, and then that enables, uh, Other businesses to have the same access to our products and services as BT did.
Charlie: And has that worked?
Abby: Yeah, it has. there's loads of, our competitors are called Altnets. Um, there's lots of them. so all over the country, you'll see lots of people building broadband, [00:10:00] which we love.
Charlie: Which we
Abby: Which we, which we need. Absolutely. I mean, you know, we, we are quite big. We're not absolutely everywhere. So, um, yeah, it means that, people get competition, competition breeds innovation.
Abby: It is good actually.
Charlie: So how long have you been at OpenReach
Abby: nearly three years, three years and March.
Charlie: and what's your role there? How long have you
Abby: I am Head of Sustainability,
Charlie: For the entire
Abby: for the entire of Openreach.
Charlie: and how big is, is Openreach in sort of numbers? What are we talking
Abby: So we are at about 27, 000, uh, sort of people, um, total headcount. majority of those are field engineers. So you'll see lots of our vans driving around. that's us out either connecting homes to broadband or kind of building infrastructure for broadband.
Charlie: 000 people. That's a pretty big organization.
Abby: we're quite junky.
Charlie: And what's turnover? Can I ask that?
Abby: Uh, about 6 billion.
Charlie: Right. Okay. So this is really interesting because, uh, and this is really what I think today is about in my mind, and there's a lot to cover here. It's like, How are big companies setting out [00:11:00] their carbon, you know, their net zero transition?
Charlie: What does that look like and what are the challenges? So, do you want to set out for us, sort of, where you are and where you're going as a
Abby: Sure. so the relationship with BT is interesting one because they are our parent company, they set the science based target. They, they set the net zero target. our ambition is net zero for our own operations by sort of March 2031, so the end of the financial year, 2030.and then for our sort of scope three by 2041.
Charlie: so what does Scope 3 mean for, for, for Openreach?
Abby: So, scope three for open reach is, majority is upstream of us. So it will be the people who are building on behalf of OpenReach. It will be the, the materials. So everything from telegraph poles to cables, where those are coming from, how they're shipped. and then at the other end, it's, it's kind of waste and sort of how we process whatever's left over when you've been building.
Abby: so how, how have you as a company structured that journey? I mean, obviously you've started with [00:12:00] analyzing your current carbon emissions and then making a plan Scope 1 and 2, so your own sort of backyard, if you like, by 2031. How are you, how are you managing that journey with such a massive organization?
Charlie: I mean, 27, 000 people that all need to, I assume, in some way, change their behaviors.
Abby: Yeah. And the behavior change thing is key. and I think it's, it's really underlooked in, in sustainability. there's, there's a lot of kind of operation operationalization, uh, on, you know, what we need to achieve, but how we need to get people to shift and, and the sort of behavioral stuff. I just don't think enough is, is being spent on that.
Abby: Um, but for us, so, we've got a strategy called let's reach zero. See what we did there. Reach. Zero. Yeah, good. Um, and under that, uh, first pillar is lowering our emissions, uh, because that is the biggie for us. So we drive the second biggest van fleet in the UK.yeah, it's, it's, it's massive.
Charlie: Who's got the
Abby: Uh, Royal Mail,
Charlie: Ah, that
Abby: Yeah, and, and when you think about it, you think, yeah, that's, [00:13:00] that's what I see. But, um, When I left my previous company, someone said, Oh, who's open reach? I said, put a quid in a jar. Every time you see an open reach van between now my leaving drinks and you'll be paying the bill. So, yeah, so we've got a lot of vans, uh, and that is the majority of our emissions kind of directly scope one.
Abby: So, um, the, the biggest thing that we can do is reduce our diesel. footprint, whatever way that is. So replace with something that is zero emissions. Uh, we trialed hydrogen that didn't quite work for us, but, um, we are converting the majority of our van fleet to, uh, EV. Um, and then it's tackling for those who can't actually, can we just reduce diesel consumption, drive fewer journeys, shorter journeys, stop idling engines, that, that kind of stuff.
Charlie: just quickly, why did hydrogen not work? Because there's a lot of chat about hydrogen being one of the ways that we're going to decarbonize certain elements of transportation. And you're, you're saying you've tried and it hasn't worked for
Abby: It hasn't. so we trialed hydrogen. I think probably about a year, [00:14:00] 18 months ago, a lot of people were excited about hydrogen in the UK, but the moment there isn't any, so we were talking to First Bus. We have a partnership with First Bus and they said they converted 25 buses. So they've got 25 hydrogen buses parked up.
Abby: because there's no hydrogen. there's only, I think about 15 hydrogen filling stations across the UK. So until that really starts to scale, nobody can do more than, you know, we had one vehicle that we were just playing with. so I'm not saying it won't be part of the mix, but But at the moment, the investment in the UK just isn't there.
Charlie: is it, is it in other countries?
Abby: yeah, I think Germany do a lot on hydrogen. So it just depends on kind of the infrastructure. So where we've sort of backed, battery electric vehicles, um, and there's more, technology and innovation happening at the kind of heavy end. So we speak to some of our suppliers about electric diggers and, electric kind of even HTV electric buses.
Abby: and again, a year ago, people thought, Oh, you wouldn't, You wouldn't go HGV. So probably part of the mix would be hydrogen for really heavy stuff. And [00:15:00] then sort of medium format vans will be in electric. and, and who knows, technology is changing so fast that in a year's time we might be in a different place again, but at the moment, hydrogen is not really a thing in the UK
Charlie: So you've jumped. With both feet into electric, have
Abby: we have. So, um, majority of our vans are sort of medium format. so we can do that. There are solutions for that.
Charlie: Do you mean like a transit van type thing? Bigger than a transit
Abby: Yeah, so if you imagine like a sprinter, um, yeah,
Charlie: Other vans are available.
Abby: many vans are available. Um, the sort of bog standard
Charlie: that sort of size of
Abby: van that you see, that's
Charlie: Bigger, bigger than a standard builder's van, but still a sort of, that sort of scale. Not into the, not into the sort of heavy goods
Abby: Yeah. So we, we go up to kind of tunnels and we do have quite a lot of kit. So, somebody said, Oh, why can't you just have your guys on a cargo bikes? And I said, have you ever tried to carry a ladder on a bike?
Charlie: Well, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not sure that carrying a ladder on the bike's a very good
Abby: spent some time in Vietnam. They carry all kinds of things on bikes. So [00:16:00] it's not impossible,
Charlie: Keaton comes to mind, if you remember who that is, and George Formby and sort of black and white comedy. Yeah, no,
Abby: Yeah. I mean, safety is one of our number one philosophies. So yeah, I don't think we're going there, but, I think that bit around, you know, if you need to carry a lot of heavy equipment and you've got a lot of tools, then,across the market in there's a huge amount in the press at the moment on the automotive industry and how difficult it is, making EVs, but there is also a demand for them.
Abby: maybe not quite to the level that they were expecting or hoping for, but from our perspective, we, we want them. the other challenge going back to your point on how do you engage people is we can't force our workforce to drive an EV if it doesn't work for them. so they're home parking fleet.
Abby: so wherever our engineers live, that's where they take their vans. if you live in a block of flats and you don't have a charging point within a few minutes walk, then actually that makes your job quite difficult to do. Uh, if you can't guarantee that you can charge it, what we don't want is an engineer to get up in the morning and go, van's dead, [00:17:00] can't turn up.
Abby: so, you know, we're working with other partners, with government to sort of support the infrastructure, to move our own engineers who can have a charging point. So we install charging points for people who want them, who've got drives and stuff like that. and then the next bit will be, how do we tackle probably the majority?
Abby: Cause I don't know where you guys live. I live in a terrace. I park my car somewhere, sort of around, it's never in the same place. and I can't run a cable from my house. So I don't drive an EV.
Will: And how do you do? This is a really kind of detailed question, but like, no, they don't want to pay for the electricity that you use for work. Like, how does that, how does that actually work?
Abby: they've got a charging card. So, they, they, all of the electricity that's used to power their van, goes through a charging card. So it never, it never touches their bill. There's an isolator between if it's
Will: Oh, wow.
Abby: So, um,
Will: I didn't know those existed.
Abby: So for exactly this kind of a scenario, which means that anyone could use [00:18:00] that charger.
Abby: so if you've got your mate over, like put it on your charging card, not gonna let you fill up on, um, but they can use it for their own personal use as well. So if, um, not through the charging card, so say you've got an EV as your personal car and you've got an open reach van, you charge your van on the card and then you just.
Abby: Use your home electric supply to charge your car.
Will: I would imagine that's really useful for many businesses listening to understand that that technology is just out there and able to be used straight away.
Abby: Yeah. And it means that, you know, in the same way as people used to have fuel cards or company cards that they could just go and pay in sort of assets, does that even exist anymore? But petrol stations,
Charlie: Other petrol stations
Abby: petrol stations do exist.
Charlie: So fundamentally, what you're saying is that, if you've got 27, 000 people, you're trying to get as many of them into EVs as possible, just getting them a car is only half the challenge. Actually, it's about the infrastructure, behind that And actually, from what you're saying, [00:19:00] it's about infrastructure throughout the whole piece, really.
Abby: Yeah. so because of the nature of what we do, I think. On EV, the market looks after the kind of urban centers, around the, the sort of the spines, if you're on the motorways and stuff, it's, it's fairly well provisioned.but where we build very rural, so we've got teams out in Scotland building sort of out to some of the small islands, or in mid Wales.
Abby: If you're out on a job and your fuel doesn't just power your the engine of your van, it powers kit off your van as well. So say you've got to have some jets going and your beacons going, what you don't want to,
Charlie: Jets. What,
Abby: like a sort of air jet. So, um,
Charlie: Okay.
Abby: a lot of our kit is in duct and the ducts are already built because they've had copper lines through them and they've been there for ages.
Abby: So there's no backlog of mud and silt and leaves and stuff. And you want to put a new cable through that. They just jet through them. So water and air. Um, so they'll power those off the van. but what you really can't [00:20:00] do is get stuck, do your job and then think, Oh, I can't get home. I'm in the middle of Wales, maybe 40, 50 miles from home and not know where there's a charging point that you can get to, because we've all done that.
Abby: Sort of sat in the back of our parents car forever. And we know like roughly, Oh, there's a petrol station there. And I know that I'll be able to get there. Whereas where you've got, I mean, there's apps that show you where EV chargers are. They're not all set up for vans. So some of them you might not even be able to fit on it, or somebody's parked on it, or it's not working, or the card doesn't work, you know, all of that stuff.
Abby: So, um, it's giving people confidence to shift.
Will: And it must be quite hard to that because if let's pretend you've sorted out the infrastructure, you've sorted out everything to get someone to. To actually want to do it comfortably must also be quite, because I mean I, I have an electric vehicle and I sometimes do have dread when I go really long distances in it And I am someone that wants to [00:21:00] do it and so thinking on someone that's kind of like, I just want to do my job That must be quite hard and how do you get around that behavior change?
Abby: Yeah, I mean, so we started with lowest hanging fruit, you know, do you want one? Um, we've got about 4, 000, vans out at the moment, and most of those people would say they wouldn't go back. You know, you get a lot of people who are like, actually, this is just great for loads of reasons. one of them being you can heat it up from the app while you're still in bed.
Abby: So it's ready to get, you know, all of that stuff. It's, it's a nice, um, sort of experience, uh, for the kind of next transfer drivers. There's probably a mix of people who are, Oh, do you know, I know I'm going to have to do it at some point, but maybe I'll wait another year until the technology is better because then I'll get a bit.
Abby: better battery or something.so sort of just sitting on the hands for a bit. And then people who genuinely do not want to do this and sort of everything in between because you're right. It's, it's not, the same as, Oh, I'll just fill up and I know [00:22:00] how that goes. You have to plan differently. You have to think differently about your fuel.
Abby: And for most people, I just can't be bothered. Um, so we, we, Try lots of different things. Uh, we use those drivers who really do like it as, sort of ambassadors. So we get them to talk about the experience, especially the ones who were a bit reticent to do it. Cause some of them go, I really didn't want to, but actually now I'm a complete convert and here's why.
Abby: And often those reasons aren't. Cause it's green and saving the planet. It is because the experience is better. They're nicer to drive. Um, it's got a cup holder, you know, any of that. so, we'll kind of play with that for some of our drivers who are parking in yards cause there are some who park at exchange buildings, then.
Abby: they can charge those. So they just get on, and then we'll get into what happens for the remainder, because like I said, you know, we would never compromise the mission. They have to be able to do their job, and, and do that realistically without saying, Oh, you know, there's a, 20 minutes down the road.
Abby: You can walk there at [00:23:00] six o'clock in the morning to charge, you know, that's, that's not fair. So, um, yeah, it's, it's a bit of a hit everything. see if we can work with councils on where charging infrastructure is see if we can install more charges ourselves. I mentioned first bus. So, We work with them where their buses are out on routes.
Abby: We can use their charges. So it's a bit of a backup. If you're near a depot, you can go and use that as well. Their buses are all out. and I think there's that whole toolbox of, of different solutions and you have to just keep it all in mind and sort of do everything.
Will: mm
Charlie: Just to back up a step, how, how have you sold this 2031 vision into the 27, 000 employees? I mean, has that been a very conscious effort or has that just been, we're doing this, this is how you, the next few steps are going to be, or is there a bigger sort of meta, narrative communication piece going on as well.
Abby: There's, there's a sort of, there's a bit of a drum beat of this is let's reach zero. This is what we need to do. and again, I'll kind of labor the toolbox analogy. It's sort [00:24:00] of using everything. It's everything from, for some people, do you know what, this is the right thing to do for the planet. You know, that, that will get a certain demographic.
Abby: we did some focus groups with some of our engineers and actually the thing that resonated more with quite a lot of them was, If you've got asthma clean air zones, so not about sort of carbon emissions, but just what you're breathing. so people said, Oh, my kid's got asthma. I want to do that. You know, I want to do the right thing for that.
Abby: So, um, we've done some stuff on that for certain parts of audiences internally. just the kind of ESG argument, our ability to raise capital now is dependent on us having a really credible net zero trajectory. So if. Our customers, our stakeholders, our shareholders are asking for this, then we've got to show that we're doing something.
Abby: So it's, it's kind of everything everywhere.
Charlie: That's an extraordinary thing that I'm sort of hearing a lot at the moment, is that if you want to raise big finance, you need to have a net zero strategy in place, which is sort of [00:25:00] feels like a really pivotal and critically important moment to
Will: But it makes so much sense because you've, it's such a high risk. If an organization hasn't understood the climate change, which is scientifically proven as it were, and they're not doing anything about it, it's then that what are they also not doing anything about? They're massively just a risk profile then,
Abby: yeah, I, I think it's that, I mean, I'm, I'm not a massive investor or shareholder in anything. Um, but I assume if you've got a huge amount of money, you want to know that. What you're investing in is safe and that's safe reputationally. It's, you know, you're not going to get a Thames water, a Rio Tinto, any of the kind of big pollution cases that you've seen in the press.
Abby: That's not good if you're a shareholder. So whether you are, again, they're kind of advocating for the planet or whether you just want to return, still sort of the right thing to do,kind of either [00:26:00] way. so I think all of the disclosures and, and the kind of regulation around, do you have a net zero target?
Abby: Is it science based? are you disclosing against, so SECA, so streamlined energy carbon reporting or the. Task force on climate related financial disclosures and all of that kind of alphabet soup that the sustainability sector is drowning in Is done for investors. It's it's financial disclosure so that people know that Their their investments are safe
Charlie: Yeah, and the companies are fit for purpose,
Will: I know.
Charlie: know, going forward.
Will: I know a law, a law firm that deals with like hundreds of millions of pounds for their contracts for their clients and they will not actually take on a client if they don't have a net zero policy because they see it as a risk. They're going, well, this company may not be around in 10 years time and they may have a hundred million pounds outstanding in bills.
Will: So therefore we're just not gonna work with them anymore.
Abby: Yeah. And for us, there's a physical infrastructure risk, risk from the climate, from, from climate change in general. you don't want to [00:27:00] think that you're investing in somebody building infrastructure that might literally not be there because it's been washed away. So kind of making sure that you're doing not just carbon, but sort of sustainability, more broadly, environmental sustainability, is protective and, and the resilience and mitigation and adaptation that's, that's needed.
Charlie: And how long have you had this 2030 target?
Charlie: 2031, sorry. How long have you had this 2031
Charlie: So I think it was set. It was set before I started, so I think it was set in 2019.And is everyone sticking to the plan?
Abby: yes. I mean,
Charlie: Because I'm really interested in this and this is where I'm slightly leading the question to this point of like you're setting a target that is effectively, what, 12 years. That's quite a long time in the corporate space. People come and go. how are big companies that have these huge journeys to go on these big changes to make, how are they going to stick to that long term trajectory?
Abby: you know, that's, that's where things like the Science Based Target Institute really do help because, you know, I could go, it's not [00:28:00] just Abby going, Hey, come on, guys, we've got to do this. We've committed publicly, and being ratified and endorsed by an organization that means you can't then, you know, for us to shy away from that is a decision that's well above my pay grade.
Abby: So sticking to it. Yes. it's one of those where, when we set the carbon target and sort of similar in, in the kind of emerging nature space, you don't necessarily know how you're going to get there.so it's a bit of a leap of faith, but one that many of our executive boards have gone through.
Abby: so we've kind of gone, okay, carbon. Yeah, fine. We understand how to measure carbon. We can reduce carbon and we can track it. So for us, we are committed to transitioning our fleet.we also, so BT group in general uses a huge amount of energy through the networks. So, um, for broadband, for 4G, 5G and kind of all of the others, they consume vast amounts of electricity.
Abby: Uh, so there is a bit on how do we kind of reduce energy consumption through the networks, and what do we do in terms of power procurement to make that sort of [00:29:00] as green as possible.and we're working with our suppliers. So, you'll often see people who are building on behalf of Open Rich. So lots of our subcontractor workforce, and you know, it's all very well us doing it, but if there's loads of people doing the same job as us and we're not asking them as well, then it's a bit, it's not meaningless, but it's less meaningful.
Abby: Uh, so yeah, we're working really closely with our subcontractors as well.
Will: I've got a question about subcontractors. How easy has it been to get them on board with your targets?
Abby: It's been, as with everything else, it's been a bit of a mix, so some of them are, and it's sort of a game of, who's further along in this, because some of them will be light years ahead, absolutely embracing this, doing this really well, and so we learn from them and, they'll have trialled different things, and so, you know, we have those kinds of conversations.
Abby: Some are a bit, Bit more hesitant and need to be, you know, it's that kind of carrot stick conversation. Um, so we had a session recently with a lot of our [00:30:00] partners where we looked at actually, if you put up the top 10 of our subcontractors and said, you know, here's who already has a science based target, here's who discloses against the carbon disclosure project.
Abby: that's kind of where we'd like you to get to. so it's a way of encouraging the ones who kind of aren't listed to go, come on, get on board because again, much as. The contingency, uh, for us on sort of raising capital, you know, it passes on if we don't get the work from some of these contracts, we don't pass on the work.
Abby: So if we can land that point with those, those audiences, I think they kind of understand, okay, if, If we want to get this work, you know, from government contracts to our customers, our direct customers, people like Sky and TalkTalk, they're asking us this kind of information. So we've all got to play.
Will: The NHS has quite a hard deadline on this, and they, a lot of their suppliers are now really, they're having to do it in order to be a supplier. Do you have anything like that set put in place?
Abby: Yeah. And the NHS is an interesting one. Actually. I [00:31:00] saw something yesterday that said, 3 percent of the UK's emissions comes from NHS travel.
Charlie: What?
Abby: I know. Don't, don't quote me. Fact check it. But somebody said this to me and I thought. That's insane. And I don't know how much of that is patients kind of traveling to hospitals,
Charlie: Yeah, I
Abby: but for us, we share a supplier subcontractor who does contracts for the NHS.
Abby: And they said, because the, so we've put in a,a carbon contract clause for our biggest suppliers, and they have to demonstrate a carbon reduction through the life of the contract. So MJ Quinn, who's one of our suppliers, said, we've done that. They've come on the journey. They've electrified part of their fleet.
Abby: they've done a lot of work on actually, how can you, um, optimize your journey distances, so reducing carbon. And they said that work helped them land another contract with the NHS. So it, you know, it has multiple benefits as well,
Abby: you know,
Charlie: mentioned, you mentioned low hanging fruit, and obviously you started with transport. You then talked about reducing, I'm very interested in this, the energy consumption. I [00:32:00] mean, is that the second biggest component of your carbon footprint? Is the electricity that you need to send
Abby: Yes. And, this is where, again, that relationship with BT group is a bit more complicated because, um, they pay the bill. So, um, the, uh, power procurement is all done at group level.but.
Charlie: Do you use 100 percent renewable energy?
Abby: so this is a, this is a fun topic actually, up until very recently, we had a hundred percent renewable. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Regos market.
Abby: So what we used to do was power purchase agreements, and then we would have Rego, so renewable energy guarantees of origin to cover things like, if you've got a van that's charged On the public network somewhere. And you don't know if that's green.if they're charging at home, we don't mandate that our engineers have a green tariff at home.
Abby: we have some diesel backup generators in some of our buildings. And, I think the other one was E shops in shopping malls. So we said, okay, we'll buy Regos to cover. And [00:33:00] actually the Rego's market is, it's, I mean, it's chaotic. The price has gone through the roof. they don't really do what I think most companies intended for them to do.
Abby: So, we're not putting money into Rego's and it is generating more renewable electricity. Um, so we are scaling back our Rego's purchase, and sort of looking for reform of the Rego's market while we figure out what the next sort of best thing is to do. The Best thing is definitely to generate on site, but, um, we don't have a huge amount of space.
Abby: Um, so even though we've got quite a lot of buildings, uh, the buildings are leased and the roofs are basically sold to things like mobile masts. So it's not like you can put solar because everyone says, Oh, why don't you put solar on the top of all your buildings? and that has been considered. So, um, yeah, so it's, it's a bit of a messy market at the moment.
Will: The Regos is, the cynics in our industry were pretty anti Regos and it's interesting that it's playing out to where the cynics thought it would play out [00:34:00] to.
Abby: Yeah. And I mean, we, did, did that thing of working with various other businesses across, not just the telecom sector, but, um, there are loads of businesses who've sort of said, do you know what, this isn't working in the way that we thought it should. So, uh, there was a joint letter that went out in, I'm going to say September, October that said, look, we need more scrutiny of this.
Abby: We need more reform of this. because, the UK market. It's crazy, the EU market seems to be a bit better, so can we sort of match some of the, the kind of guidance around it? So yeah, we'll see what happens next.
Will: so ultimately, the hope of the market was that it would drive sustainable energy production, and that fundamentally has not worked.
Abby: so I mean, yeah, I think it was that binary of kind of, you know, if you buy. These certificates, then there will be more renewable energy. And while there is more renewable energy, the linkage isn't there. So, um, yeah, looking for better
Charlie: But when when BT, [00:35:00] right, you know, someone gets out a giant checkbook, I'm imagining the size of my table, and they write the big power check, which, you know, in my head, in my head, that's how big business works. It's got bigger checkbooks. Do they write that to a renewable energy company?
Abby: I don't know, um, the power mix actually, uh, it's not part of my room. It's, I know that we have eight, I know I will say it is a power mix. So, uh, the power purchase agreements will be predominantly renewable.
Charlie: So you, mentioned low hanging fruit, transport, energy. raw energy. What are the other things that you guys are targeting?
Abby: so I've mentioned lowering emissions as our first pillar. And the second one is, using less wasting less because ultimately the easiest way to have less impact on the planet is to just use less stuff. and we, it's kind of landed that quite nicely because,we've got a huge and, very, um, sort of mature safety culture.
Abby: So,For obvious reasons, you know, our people climb telegraph poles. It's not the safest job that you'll ever do. So, um, we have 12 life saving rules and one of our [00:36:00] MDs said, Oh, can we not have 12 planet saving rules? I'm not sure. I remember 24 different life saving and planet saving rules. So we said, okay, if you remember nothing else, then use less stuff.
Abby: Because whether it's fuel, whether it's materials, whether it's packaging, whatever it is, electricity, everything, it helps. and it helps from a kind of carbon and from a nature perspective. so as part of that, there's, there's lots of things that the teams are doing. one is reducing packaging.
Abby: Uh, we don't make packaging. We're a B2B, so we don't package anything, but we get a lot of inbound from our suppliers. So working with all of our suppliers to say, Hey, could you, um, uh, not wrap that sledgehammer in bubble wrap? It probably doesn't need it please. Um, and, and kind of working through with all the different suppliers saying actually, can we pack more things in pallet?
Abby: Can it be in cardboard or, what, whatever those, those solutions are, um, with a lot of success. I'm not going to say we're plastic free yet, but, definitely a lot of work has been done to, Sort of [00:37:00] downsize component parts to increase capacity on sort of pallets. So you're not, you're shipping more within that kind of unit, to take away packaging where it's not needed.
Abby: We're moving very much into fibre network, aren't we, in the UK? What is the footprint between the old copper, lines and fiber. Is there a I don't know.
Charlie: and improvement, the reduction in metals. And
Abby: So yeah, on kind of all levels. So, um, fiber is passive. Uh, so copper is. It's an old electricity cop, not electricity line, but it has power going through it. fiber is a fiber optic glass with light going through it. So there's no power. So it uses significantly less power. I think it's 85 percent less power than a copper line.
Abby: there is kit at either end. That is powered, but that bit in the middle, doesn't need electricity.also glass kind of less impactful than copper. we are extracting a lot [00:38:00] of the legacy, and redundant copper so that it can be recycled. so then, you know, you're increasing the amount of recycled copper.
Will: This is a really good segue into Right, last time we spoke, you talked about a book, and I couldn't remember the name of it, and I was talking about it with Charlie, because glass is one of the materials in the
Abby: I'm obsessed with this book. I talk about it all the
Charlie: Ed Conway, material world.
Abby: so
Will: Because it's on my reading list.
Abby: it's so good. Um, I do have like a sustainability library just behind my screen before that looks like I'm endorsing Ed's book, but I am endorsing Ed's book. I went to college with Ed. He studied English. Uh, he is not a scientist and it's quite a science y book.
Abby: And I think That is probably why it's so great, because he's a journalist. He writes in a really engaging way. And if I thought I was going to sit and go, Oh, I'm really excited about reading a book about lithium. You know, I probably wouldn't believe it, but it is great. And my jaw dropped so many times through the first kind of couple of chapters.
Abby: And just was like, [00:39:00] what is that? How we get that thing and stuff that you just don't ever think about. I've never thought about where a silicon chip comes from. Um, but yeah, it's a great read.
Will: But that's
Charlie: material world that is getting ordered
Abby: Get it on your Christmas
Will: but it's the glass, but it's the glass, it's the, so is that normal, sand that goes, so we, this is why I was, I'm interested in it because of what you said to me about the sand only coming from certain parts of the world, which I didn't realise, I thought you could get sand from any beach basically, but you can't, you, yeah, so you can't do that, and so is that the type of sand that goes into the fibre optic?
Abby: So, so we get fiber optic grade glass, and there's, there's a video on YouTube, where you extrude it. So I went to, uh, we've got an innovation center, um, at industrial parks. It's a BT kind of science and research park. And then there's a testing site next door called four acre, and it's where open reach tests all of that kit.
Abby: So, um, It's four acres and they've got telegraph poles and they've got ducts and they kind of, they, they put everything through its paces. [00:40:00] They've got this block of glass and they said, Oh, that's, that's like a kilometer of fiber optic cable. I was like, how? And it's just, it's called extrusion. They just stretch it and it's got a color, a hollow core.
Abby: And that's, where the kind of, again, I'm sort of massacring science, but yeah. So, um, uh, the fiber optic grade glass we think is really high quality.The guys who make it, I think Comscope, invented Pyrex, which again is just quite a fun fact. so
Charlie: Like a bit of Pyrex?
Abby: but, um, so we're looking at, you know, what is the best way because it's really, really thin, it's thinner than a human hair.
Abby: So actually, how do you, because we'll always have offcuts, how do you capture those offcuts and what can be done with them? Because they are really high grade, but is there a way of, um, you know, with copper, you kind of burn off a lot of the sort of plastic and the sheathing and stuff and you still get.
Abby: really high quality copper. Uh, with fiber optics, it's a little bit harder. So, um, yeah, what we do with a lot of those offcuts that is [00:41:00] respectful of the value it has, because it's easy to sort of mulch it into like little pellets that you can use to do cone bases and things like that, but possibly there's a better solution for fiber.
Charlie: Yeah, so downcycle rather than recycle. How do we recycle?
Will: when
Will: reducing your, I don't know, waste in this, stuff. I see, you see a lot of the fiber optic stuff coming, coming up. There's an awful lot of like loops on loads of telegraph poles for, how do you know how much, cause it's so much must just add up to a huge amount is, is that looked at and how is that waste, designed and what's like, how do you, how do you work it out?
Abby: See, I've just said nobody looks at telegraph poles, but Will does. Um, my wife hates it because we'll go on holiday and I'll be like, Ooh, they've got interesting telegraph poles. And she's like, Oh God. Um, and you know, there's a, there's a mark on every pole and I, you know, you can sort of read certain things like where it comes from and stuff.
Abby: Yeah. And I, [00:42:00] I'm a, I'm a nerd. I'm a pole nerd. Um, but yeah, so, um, everything that's on the top of a telegraph pole is not all just open reaches. So, um, Going right back to the start where, you know, we share, uh, so we were spun off from BT, uh, part of the, um, so Ofcom, who's our regulator said, uh, you've basically got to become the landlords of the nation's infrastructure.
Abby: So the telegraph poles and the ducts that are, that exist already that BT had, we had to make available to anyone who wants to build on them. So a lot of that kit will be other, infrastructure builders who will, you know, you've got, um, Uh,I don't know how to say this in kind of layman's terms, but a CBT, Connectorized Block Terminal, it's a little black thing that's on the top of the telegraph pole.
Abby: And there might be sort of six or seven, um, and they are shared, uh, sort of those poles can be accessed by anyone, which in itself is a great sustainability initiative because they're not then having to build more [00:43:00] ducts and more poles than are required. so. in in that sort of level it's it's not just us and there is a circular economy benefit of sharing um
Charlie: are you saying that the ones with the lots of extra loops is not OpenReach?
Abby: Yeah, it's If it's really messy if it's if it's really messy, it's definitely not us
Charlie: Did yeah, but we'll just, just, just to spin back for a second. I'm really interested in a couple of things you've said where you've effectively talked about the role of OpenReach. As a very large oak tree in the forest, if you like. Sort of actually starting to shape the way that the other players, the slightly smaller players, your suppliers are operating in this kind of wider business ecosystem.
Charlie: Do you, do you very much see yourselves as being a kind of a lead organization and trying to change the general ecosystem around where you operate?
Abby: Yeah in areas. I mean through Sort of [00:44:00] sheer scale and, and longevity, like we, we have a response with great power comes great responsibility guys. Um, you know, we've, we, we cover a lot of ground. Uh, we work with a lot of suppliers. probably, most of our competitors are using the same sort of kit as us.
Abby: And I think if you know that at that four acre site, it's been, it's been really put through its, its paces on quality and safety, then that gives a level of. Of confidence. and we know that some of our suppliers love it because if they get their kit passed by us, then that's the sort of badge of standard.
Abby: So, um, across lots of different things, if we are, setting a certain standard with our subcontractor builders, same conversation again, they're Probably not just building for us. You know, we've talked about Quinn's building for us and for the NHS, but equally building for sort of other businesses too.
Abby: So, do we see ourselves as that having that role? Probably not as much as we could. I think, [00:45:00] um, we could, we could be bolder with that. Uh, we have just about completed the carbon footprint of, FTTP and FTTC, which are fibres to the premises, fibres to the cabinet. So this is the first time anyone in the UK has done that piece of work.
Abby: And we kind of wanted to go first. so then we can release our methodology and then everyone else can sort of follow that. it has been done in bits in Europe, but, uh, yeah, ours has been slightly different. And it's, it's quite weird thing trying to carbon footprint. A service like that, as opposed to, you know, come from printing a mug or something, I think is relatively straightforward, but trying to do the, we built some of our copper a really long time ago.
Abby: How do you divide it? we've, we've built fiber past 16 million homes, but we've only connected 4 million. So do you divide it by 16 million or do you divide it by 4 million?
Will: our analysts would love a job like that. That would really excite them because that's the stuff that gets them out of bed. Um, so [00:46:00] what, what would be really interesting? We've talked about what you're doing, how you're working as an organization. We have alluded nor talked a bit about 2031 targets and then 2041 targets.
Will: Where are you on your targets?
Abby: good question. So I've got a team this year, so I'm quite new. I was a bit of a solo artist. Um, I've got a team and the first thing that, uh, we've been doing is building a dashboard because what we were doing was going, Oh, we've got 4, 000 EVs, but actually where does that sit us against our net zero trajectory?
Abby: I don't know, because all the numbers are governed at BT level. So we get the overall, but what's open reaches bit. So, um, the answer is, I don't know. Um, we have some data, so we know how we kind of fit in. The sort of BT group jigsaw. But what I want is to be able to see how close Openreach is to kind of doing what it's doing.
Abby: Um, we know that, you know, we are downsizing our fleet and we're increasing EVs, so we're fairly comfortable that we're on track, but [00:47:00] I'd like more than. Fairly comfortable.
Will: yeah, no. Interesting, interesting. We're bringing out scenario modeling into comp, compare footprint. Fun enough to, to answer that question. And it's just made me think actually really, if you are in that situation, I wonder how many other people are with what they're doing.
Abby: yeah. And for anyone who works in a group business, I sort of didn't expect this when I moved across. We don't have a really clear footprint of our own, whether it's energy, because we share buildings, you know, even the networks are not just ours. waste all goes through a centralized contract where there's lots of people operating out of an exchange building.
Abby: We have Probably about 80 percent occupancy. Do we generate 80 percent of the waste? Do we generate 90 percent of the waste?and we don't get that. So what I've done in kind of previous roles is relatively straightforward bit of maths is this is your total waste. This is how much you recycle. This is what you need to tackle.
Abby: And we don't have that. We've got some waste streams that we know [00:48:00] are just us, but for a lot of it. It's invisible, which without that visibility, people go, Oh, well, it's not really my problem. Is it? Um, so it's how do you get people to take responsibility when you can't just hammer them on numbers?
Will: what about the kind of the rub off benefits of this transition? I mean, are you seeing financial savings? I mean, is there a sort of a positive feedback loop from that perspective outside of the obvious carbon environmental
Abby: Yes and no. Um, I'm, you know, there is, Obviously with a kind of use less, there are savings to be had. I think efficiency and sustainability go very nicely together.I'm hesitant though, because it's really easy for, Chief financial officers to go, Oh yeah, sustainability saves money. And sometimes you need to invest.
Abby: the EV transition is not necessarily cheaper. It probably is if you take in service maintenance repair. Um, if you take advantage of the government grants on EVs, you know, there's, there's ways of making that sort of [00:49:00] payback. But for everything that you're saving, there do need to be points where you're just investing as well.
Abby: and it's, I, I don't think it's a. As, as reductive as sustainability, su sustainability saves money, so let's do it. Um,
Charlie: I mean, it's very interesting. Cause I mean, again, going back quickly back to cars, very about the maintenance is that everyone goes, Oh, you know, people, they're not going to catch on. They're not going to work. So, well. It's just a lack of time you spend in a garage, the lack of maintenance on an EV car provided It doesn't do anything stupid and it works as it's supposed to is so much less than a than an internal combustion engine car I mean just mind blowingly less that that I think that's gonna be one of the big drivers for transition is just less time Not on the
Abby: yeah, and, and for us, the business case had to be everything. So, it is the grants, it is exemptions in clean air zones. It is the payback over a certain period of time. You know, it's, it's, it's all of that to make that make sense and it does stack up.
Charlie: What are the key [00:50:00] takeaways that you would want listeners facing similar issues to sort of absorb and, and, and think about?
Abby: That is a great question. key takeaways. I think arejust really thinking about that toolbox. So it's, it serves nobody if I go into and superglue myself to my CEO's desk, and say, come on, Clive, we've got to do this cause we're saving the planet, to be fair to him. He does kind of get that.
Abby: but, it's not a one size fits all. Some people are really not bothered by that and don't, don't necessarily buy into that. So being able to play the kind of risk and resilience card, being able to talk the language of the boardroom in terms of capital and return on investment, and it's kind of all of that, uh, looking into.
Abby: How you win hearts and minds of everybody, not just people who, I mean, in fact, I'm, I'm not that bothered about hearts. I think we need to move sustainability from, you've got to believe it and you've got to be [00:51:00] passionate about it into actually, you've just got to do it. Like this is now just business as usual crack on.
Abby: So first, so choosing your message for your audience and using all of the levers available.
Abby: Yeah, throw everything at
Charlie: that they are many and
Abby: Yeah. Um, I was having a conversation with somebody about the kind of degree you need to have for sustainability. And I think we settled on actually degree doesn't matter, but an MBA would be helpful. Um, because you've, you've got to convince people who are possibly not super green and, and on, you know, for people who work at Patagonia or something great.
Abby: Um, but for the majority of us in that vast middle tract of businesses who sort of know they've got to do something, but don't really know how that's where you, you really get sort of traction and, and, and win minds.
Will: Dare I say it, slightly contentious. Psychology.
Abby: Yes.
Will: And that was probably one degree that would be really beneficial. I've always wanted to, my kind of way, if I've hit like, I'm being [00:52:00] successful, I've got a psychologist on our books. I've always felt that that's actually a recipe for success.
Abby: Yeah. I mean, we're doing a thing with our team on how, how do you do behavior change? How, what language do you need to speak to different audiences to really kind of get them on board? and that's, it's a sales pitch. It's, it's a huge amount of your job is, is kind of convincing people with whatever is going to convince them.
Charlie: And so Abby, are you going to hit 2031?
Abby: are.
Charlie: And are you going to hit the 2041? Is it
Abby: It's 2041. Uh, that one, I think everybody would agree. Scope three is a little bit scarier cause we're all spending a lot of time focusing on scope one and two and, um, 2041 is going to come quite quick. Uh, yes, we are going to do that because, uh, we are going to work together with everybody and, uh, we're going to make that happen.

Abby: So Charlie, I mean, I've known Nabi for quite a few years now. And, um, what do you, [00:53:00] what do you think?
Charlie: No, I think it's fascinating. I mean, it's such a huge problem. I think 27, 000 vans, actually, we sort of worked out after after finishing our chat is it's actually they've got 27, 000 vans. So there's 27, 000 field operatives out and about plus the support staff. So I mean, it is an absolute vast organization.
Charlie: And I thought Well, she didn't lean into it enormously. I felt that actually it sort of is those big companies setting ambitious zero carbon targets and the kind of make, you know, the kind of data analysis behind that, and then asking their suppliers to, to match that, that is what's going to drive this change.
Charlie: And, and, and, and that's really reassuring. So that was really positive. I think the fact that she said something that I've been hearing increasingly recently, which is that, big business. Big finance, sorry, really get sustainability and they only want to invest in companies that have got clear strategies to meet and deal with it is [00:54:00] also something that gives me hope when, you know, when there's a lot of sort of negativity out there.
Charlie: So. No, I thought it was fascinating. And really, I liked what she was saying about minds, not hearts and minds. I think that's, again, absolutely right. You know, we've not got that far with sustainability, partly because it has relied principally on somebody wanting to get it despite what, you know, wanting to be sustainable, you know, caring about the identifying as a sustainability champion, and until we move beyond that, it is always going to have a limited appeal.
Charlie: So I thought it was great. Really useful, I think.
Will: Yeah. it's gratifying that they are on target as well, that they are achieving those targets that they've
Charlie: Well, she said she didn't know, but she felt they probably were,
Will: Well, I think.
Charlie: of interesting. In the, because
Will: if you, but if you look at what they're doing, if you look, they're literally looking at the problem and holistically tackling that problem rather than just, like a lot of organizations do just go, [00:55:00] we'll put a target in and they don't almost join the dots up.
Will: I felt quite, I felt quite clearly that Openreach definitely,
Will: um,
Charlie: a clear, developed strategy. I think you're right. I think a lot of people think by stating a target of whatever it might be, like the government, I mean, the biggest organization in the country, the government have done that, haven't they? 2050, net zero, Where's the plan? There isn't one. And just saying it repeatedly does not get you there.
Charlie: But actually for a large player like that to have a clear strategy and actually to be saying, where are we? It's not easy to find out, but we're going to find out and we're going to ask questions and challenge ourselves. It's great to, it's great to hear. So,
Will: And I think something that's really important for listeners to think about is you can have the near term targets and the long term targets. And one of the things that comes up a lot with organizations and clients is, well we're putting in a target for 2040, [00:56:00] how do we, what is the detail? For the 10 years between 2030 and 2040, and you don't actually know the details of how you're going to get to that 2040 target now, even now. And that's because, the infrastructure changes, you're, there are lots of moving targets, technology changes, people change. And that's something we really do need to remember is just because an organization doesn't know how they're going to get to the 2050 doesn't mean that they're not going to. I think it was very clear that they were very comfortable about saying we're going to get to the 2031 target, and I think that's really important.
Will: If you have an organization that doesn't know that at this stage, then I would definitely question the 2041 target.
Charlie: but also interesting when she talked about the fact that actually beyond the sustainability sort of group or team within the company, that other areas. For example, the people that [00:57:00] procure procurement who let the contracts and now starting to make the demands of the subcontractors and the suppliers, that's really gratifying, because that means you've got culture change, which means it's going to stick, you know, it's not just a great his his the kind of sustainability and telling us what to do, and they walk out of the room, and everyone carries on business as usual, you're actually seeing institutional change.
Charlie: So no, I thought that was, um, Transcribed That was positive, that was a really good, uh, that was a good one. And, and, and, and, Ed Conway's Material World, that's on my, uh, that's on my, uh,
Will: Yeah, likewise. Hey, listen, have you ever read Tipping Point?
Charlie: Yes.
Will: And yeah, Yeah, likewise, likewise, but it's coming up a lot with my thinking at the moment, because do you remember in it? There was, all, it's all about what are the tipping points with, in society, and with things. And I think something like if 20 percent of society change, then that's the tipping point, and the whole of society will do it. And I'm starting to think that we're there with [00:58:00] climate change and tipping points. I don't know,
Will: I just, because I think everyone thinks that it should be 60%, 80%, like a large amount, but it's actually a very small amount of organisations and people etc that needs to have changed in order for the whole of society to change.
Charlie: Well, I think if the finance people get it, then we're a big way there. If government get it and don't roll back, we're a big way there. The question is, will we do it quick enough? And that's what I'm not sure of. Anyway, I think that's about, that's about enough of us today, isn't it? Thank you very much for joining sustainability solved.
Charlie: Now remember to go and look at the sustainability solved hub and please do rate the show with wherever you get your podcasts. So leave a comment on Spotify or anywhere else. And also talk to the people, you know, and your team in your organization or your friends.
Charlie: And mention the show if you like it. And please do get in touch. Let us know your thoughts and any issues that you're [00:59:00] struggling with in the sustainability area so that we can think about new, uh, new episodes going forward. Will,
Will: I think,
Charlie: it's a big year.
Will: I know I'm really looking forward to this year and I think that getting in touch is really, really important. I love talking to listeners and speaking to them and solving the problem together,
Charlie: there you go. And thanks for listening.