Season 4, Episode 132 : Jill Jackson

Will Richardson 00:01
Good morning, Jill. Thank you so much for joining us on our Green Element Podcast. Your name is Jill Jackson, and you are from the Big Exchange. Can you tell us a bit about your business, and what's your purpose and who you work with, please?

Jill Jackson 00:16
Morning, Will, how are you today? I'm Jill Jackson, Chief Executive Officer at the Big Exchange. Our business is a business that's been co-founded by the Big Issue Group. And we are looking to democratise access to financial services. And to make it a more inclusive industry. We provide access, support, and choice to various different financial services products. At the moment, we offer customers the opportunity to invest in ethical sustainable impact investment funds, all the in people's money is going towards creating a better societal future and creating a positive impact on the planet. We're also just yesterday, we launched our app, which is free to download, and the app allows people, you don't need to be an investor to download the app. It uses open banking functionality to help people understand more about where they spend their money. And so really, we want to overall be the place that people come to spend, save and invest their money with impact, and understand a bit more about what their money is doing and where it's going for us. As part of that, it's really important to be transparent. And help people understand where their money's going both the good and the bad of it. And understand that we're on a transaction as a country to move to a greener economy. And whilst it might not be perfectly green today, the areas that we can get to that point where people really can be confident in terms of their spending and investing choices.

Will Richardson 01:56
That sounds really good. So, trying to work out what, you know, that means to me, the listener, what differentiates you between, because there are other places that you can invest money in that are impactful? And like us as a user, can I just put money in from my bank into a fund? Or do you advise on which ones? Or do you have different ones?

Jill Jackson 02:30
In terms of what differentiate says, first of all, we only offer those types of funds, we do an offer, it's not a whole of market proposition. So, you wouldn't find a regular, you know, footsie 100 funds on there, on our platform. So, we independently assess every fund that comes on. So that's a really key thing for us whether it's an ethical or unethical fund, a sustainable fund, an impact fund, an ESG fund, we assess all independent with the same methodology to make it easier for consumers to understand where their money is going, and what it actually does. And the first thing that we do as part of that is look at the positive impact that's created by the investment. And then we flag to customers where there may be potential issues or control overseas around those companies as well. So, it's really helping people understand a bit more about where their money is going. I think for us, it's really important. I'll come back to that transparency point, it's really important that people are able to see where their money is going. Because that's how we can create confidence that there's change happening. In terms of other people in the market. I mean, quite a lot of investment platforms now offer an ethical option, if you like. But for us, that's the only option that we would go for.

Will Richardson 03:54
And how do you mark funds? How do you rate funds? What sort of things do you look for?

Jill Jackson 04:02
So, we do feel bottom-up stock analysis. So, we take every company and look at it. And so, the fund managers that have to submit essentially a due diligence, complete a due diligence process when they come onto the platform. It's a full stock analysis. And in addition to that, we also ask the fund manager to confirm the intention behind the purchase of the stock, which I think can't be underestimated how important is because that also helps drive out where a fund manager's intention is to fund the transition. You know, when there's a lot of discussion and various press just now about whether funding the transition for traditional fossil fuel companies is the right or wrong thing to do. We choose to let consumers make that choice but with the confidence that we've done the analysis for them and we understand that the intention behind that stock purchase is to fund the transaction and which realistically needs to happen, we need to fund the transition to a net-zero world. It's not going to happen if we don't invest money in getting there. So yeah, for us, it's really about that bottom-up stock analysis. And it looks at a number of factors, it looks at what UN Sustainable Development Goals is positively contributing towards. So, when you look at a company, what is it doing? Is it about diversity? Is it about poverty? Is it about climate? What SDG is it really addressing? And how can we get some comfort around what it's doing? I mean, it's a really detailed process. It's pretty time-consuming. But it's well worth doing. And hopefully over time, as the industry gets more data, reliable data that's a bit more mechanical and standard, that will become easier to do.

Will Richardson 05:55
Okay. And you talked about the investors have to say why they chose that particular investment, is that communicated to the person using or investing in?

Jill Jackson 06:12
And that's a really good question. Well, it's not at the moment, but that's in our next iteration over disclosures to customers. So, at the moment, we were really keen to get something up and running really quickly. So, at the moment, what we do is we flag potential issues to consumers, and even then they can be refined further. And, and we're looking at that just now. But the intention is that where there are potential issues that we can then provide fund manager comments as to why that is there. And I think that's really important for consumers. And we just need to get the mechanics right behind the scenes to automate that. And, yeah, that I do agree, I think that that's something that could be really important for consumers.

Will Richardson 06:54
I guess people that are going to be investing in it will have different, they'll have different viewpoints, but similar, want similar outcomes. So, therefore, they'll probably be asking different questions. But with a similar, you know, similar outcome to you and your investors. So, therefore, everyone wants to say otherwise, they wouldn't be using it with the same outcome. They'll be like, oh, but what about this, this, and this? And I guess it's a really good way to almost change the market as well, because you'll be almost crowdsourcing reasons why and what people are looking for within the markets.

Jill Jackson 07:35
Yeah, absolutely. I don't think you can underestimate, one of the things that we also do in our platform is we give consumers to work through so they can see the full portfolio holdings. Now, albeit that as of time like on that, so it's not, you know, as of that minute in the day, and that as a timeline, but that, again, for us is something that's really important as well. And, and, for me, one of the things that really helps consumers understand is the work that fund managers do want engagement. You know, so I think a lot of consumers don't necessarily understand the work that a fund manager can do when something happens in an organisation that they don't like, you know, quite often they will be engaging with that company to see, you know, we won't necessarily come and ultimately the vote that we're, you know, AGM or any AG ends. But for us, it's, we want to really build on that story and start to give consumers more information about, you know, yes, this is why the fund manager bought the stock. And this is also why recently the 40 desk we for that company, and if they've given them, you know, 12 months to sort it out, and if it's not sorted out, then, ultimately, we can sell data stocks. And I think that starts to really create an interesting story for consumers about the power that money can have as well.

Will Richardson 08:59
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. I'm certainly going to have a look at the app and put the link up on our website. And so, you said you're a part of the Big Issue Group. Does in the decision-making, are you all a part of the same kind of decision-making criteria? So, I don't know, I guess the magazine we all know and read is, will that influence things and what you do? I don't know.

Jill Jackson 09:37
Yeah, no, I know, it's a really good question. Because it's quite unusual for a business like ours, to be co-founded by a social enterprise by the mega-ship. And I think that gives us a bit of a superpower because we're very plugged into through that relationship. We're very plugged into the fact that there are people in the margins of society that suffer as a result of us continuing to do the same thing and behave in the same way. And just to confirm that we're not part of the Big Issue Group, the Big Issue are one of our that our largest shareholder. We describe it as being part of the family. But for us, in terms of mission, there's, it's absolutely at the core of what we do. The Big Issue, you know, ethos as a hand up, not a handout. And, we've tried to let that come into our business as well as how do we give people the information to allow them to make those decisions themselves and gives them access? And it really does, in terms of, so Nigel Kershaw, who's the CEO of Big Issue, the Big Issue Group is on our board. I mean, the Big Issue do pose the magazine is absolutely, I agree, everybody knows that everybody is, it's a real, it's got fantastic brands in the UK in terms of what it does for people. But the Bigger Issue Group do way more than that. There's a big issue invest that have got, you know, LP funds that invest in social enterprises and help businesses that are really trying to make a societal impact change. And that's really how the Big Exchange began, because somebody asked Nigel, why can't one of your average Big Issue readers invest in one of your Big Issue invest funds? And obviously, LP funds are for high-net-worth sophisticated investors? And really, that kind of got Nigel to thinking, how can we really get people access to funds that make a difference? And that was really the beginning of the idea for the Big Exchange.

Will Richardson 11:39
And it's coming to a really good time, isn't it? Because I'm going to absolutely show my naivety in the financial market now. But did I not listen to the news fairly recently about the fact that people can now invest in companies that list on the footsie 100. And like average, they can now start to invest independently, themselves? Whereas before it used to be only companies? And as you say, no high-net-worth individuals, is that right?

Jill Jackson 12:14
I think that from what we've seen, there's been a real surge, particularly in the last few days, actually during COVID. I mean, when you look at online DIY, which is investment accounts that are opened with no, and your advice, given whichever platform doesn't give advice at all the big exchanges, that is a, what's described in the industry is executional. Least of the customer makes the choice themselves. And we give them information, the interpreter and they make the choice. I think for us, in terms of what we've seen in the last year, there's been a big surge in apps where you can buy direct companies. So somebody that's never invested before can go in and say right, I like the look of that particular company, and I'm going to buy it. And there's been some apps launched that have seen quite a big surge in activity. I think for me, if somebody's never invested before, for me, funds are the best way for them to start because you diversify your risk, you know, you're not putting your money into one company. So I would always advocate for that in the first instance, I think if you start to build up, you know, a pot of money, I wouldn't disagree that some direct company exposure might be good for you if you've done the research, but I think funds in the first instance for a beginner investor-oriented, somebody that's more experienced, and helps diversify away from, you know, having that single stock exposure.

Will Richardson 13:38
Okay, I guess I'm also just saying, the market is changing. People's attitudes are changing, people are almost becoming more knowledgeable and technology is influencing that change. And what you're doing is incredibly helpful. And a part of that see of change that we're seeing happening within the financial world, but also happening with what we're seeing happening in the cultural, within culture as well. I mean, we've seen such a shift in, you know, culture over the last two, three years of impactful businesses, people wanting to buy off businesses that they believe in, that they think are actually more purpose-driven. And I think COVID has almost put it up again because I think so many people are buying online and going: I now realise why I don't want to buy online. I actually go to my local shop. I'm not able to, I still have to buy Valentine's gifts for your loved one. I still have to buy a birthday present. But, you know, that all of us are probably going to go right well, let's go to the local one next year. It'll be all local shops only hopefully. Yeah.

Jill Jackson 15:01
I really want to believe that that happens. Well, for my local community alone I hope that that is the outcome. I do think that you're right. I think that there's a heightened awareness, I think amongst people around the impact that they are individually having on the world, right? So, if the Amazon guys are never away from your door, you know, what does that mean? You know, what is happening in that whole process. And I think scenarios like Boohoo where, you know, as in the mainstream media, that our company is not treating their supply chain, and the people that are employing are not treated fairly, I think that creates a wave of change in society as well, because that can be your son, daughter, sister, brother that's being treated like that. And that creates solidarity amongst people that they think hang on a minute, I don't want anyone I know to be treated like that, therefore, why would I buy something from them? And I think that's really interesting. But also, I think, in terms of younger people are just taught in a different way like my kids at school, you know, pack lunch, plastic-free pack lunch, right? Go get make that happen. I mean, their minds are starting to think about this at a younger age. I mean, and I think all of that creates real positive change amongst society. So yeah, I think that we, where you spend your money cannot be underestimated the impact that can have.

Will Richardson 16:41
And I guess it's too early to see it, but I guess you guys will see that the change in companies and that purpose-driven aspect of companies and which ones do well, and which ones don't firsthand, and very quickly, doing what you guys do. So, it'll be really interesting too, I would imagine, it's really interesting for your fund managers, if they're only dealing with impactful businesses, because there's so much research that shows that purpose-driven businesses grow faster than non-purpose driven businesses. I mean, it's kind of it's a given now. And I think that's probably why so many more businesses are looking at B Corp, the B Corp business model.

Jill Jackson 17:27
Yeah, absolutely. And we're going through that application process just know. It's a tough process to go through. But it's really, it's tough, I think, about everything to do with your organisation and how it's run the big issue are already a B Corp. So, we're familiar with the process in there. And we're walking through that application within and, I think, for us, because we've got that real mission and purpose at the core of what we're doing. And it forms part of our decision making, all of our decisions are made around that, you know, by buyer, when making this decision, does it deliver on the purpose and mission of the business? And if not, why we're doing it, you know, all of those types of integral decision making, but B Corp makes you think about every aspect of your business and the impact that you're really having. And going through that application process, I think for a new business like ours is something that I would suggest to any new business. And because it sets you up for success, and in terms of the way that you run your business, what you offer to customers, everything to do with every aspect of your business. And, yeah, it's an interesting process to go through. And we really hope to be successful in the application.

Will Richardson 18:47
I'm sure you will do. The Better Business act was launched yesterday. And they, what was interesting was the people, the businesses at the launch, there are a lot of larger businesses behind the Better Business act, of which many of them were not B Corps. And it was really refreshing to see because I like, many don't believe that B Corp is necessarily the only way we just want every business to be ethical and purpose-driven. And to be thinking about everything around you. And it's, it was great. It was great to see that. And that I know that sounds funny coming from a B Corp that's been a B Corp for six years. But it's you know, we all want the same basic, we all want the same thing that. We will just want purpose-driven businesses.

Jill Jackson 19:41
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the Better Business act in those larger businesses, and it's way harder for the larger business to become a B Corp, right? Because they have to unpack things, and to do it and that can be quite difficult. So, I think the better business that demonstrates a way that they can still create unpacked, I would like to see some larger organisations becoming B Corp, so that, that really, you know, a real signal to the industry that is possible. And whereas I think at the moment, it tends to be smaller businesses or newer businesses that are going through that process. And so well said, welcome, any change that you see that creates the same outcome back to that point we were talking at the start is that everybody's got a slightly different view. But as long as the outcomes the same, then, you know, by hook or by crook or get there. I would love to see a larger organisation go through that the B Corp process and be successful because I think it could be a real signal to the rest of the industry that it's possible to behave in that way. And get those outcomes.

Will Richardson 20:52
So, what's your background to, you know, to? You founded the Big Exchange?

Jill Jackson 21:00
Yeah, so well, not personally, no. So that was the Big Issue Group and a number of other individuals came together just before I joined actually, to found the Big Exchange. And when they were looking for somebody to take their CEO position, they approached me. And my background is that prior to this, I worked at Aberdeen Standard Investments, and I was head of the UK retail area of the business at that point, my background does asset management. I've always worked in Asset Management over the years. And always, always had a really keen interest and ethical sustainable investment. Ethical was the only option with 20 years old, right? That was the only way that you could invest in any way that felt like it was in line with your values. And I was always really interested in that. And I can remember when we launched the funds, and the first ethical funds at the company, was called Britannic at the time. And that was, I was delighted to see that in terms of a step change, but it was still seen as a bit, you know, odd at that point, right. And very much like if you invest in that way, you're giving up returns. That was the absolute sentiment. And I've been delighted over the years to see that progress and change as different funds have come out that have been aligned to values. And, you know, it's great that we're seeing data now that, you know, supports that purpose-driven business will be creating better outcomes, but also on a purely financial basis, on a chart that you can create the same if not better returns financially, and through these businesses. But yeah, I've always worked in asset management. But I've always been fascinated by the fact that even if it was a large-segregated mandate that the asset manager was awarded, it was a real person's money. It was somebody's pension money. It was, you know, but if you look around if you want to, I don't know, see a company wins a pension fund for a firefighter in a scheme. I know that one of the companies I work for one of their American firefighter schemes, and I was really passionate about it. We can't lose sight of the fact that these are firefighters pensions that we've got, yeah, maybe that's a huge segregated mandate, but it's some, isn't a real person's money. So ultimately, the asset management industry is a retail business. But sometimes it doesn't feel like that. And for me, I was always very passionate about do not lose sight of the fact that these are, everything's retail at the end of it. Sold somebody's money somewhere, right?

Will Richardson 23:37
That's really nice to hear because you hear such horror stories, and I guess Hollywood's quite good at perpetuating those horror stories? Well, because it wouldn't make good. It's not great Hollywood stories, is it? I'm thinking about you, by the way.

Jill Jackson 23:55
Yeah, and I think that the industry has got a reputation or has built up a reputation for being quite opaque. And I do think that there are great signs that are trying to unwind that and become more transparent. And I think that the combination of fintech disrupting the market, asset managers understanding that consumers have different expectations, now. So, it's real. And then regulation coming from the top down. So, I think it's all of these things together that create almost a perfect storm for the change.

Will Richardson 24:28
And so, when it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business? What's the biggest struggle you've had so far? And how have you overcome it?

Jill Jackson 24:40
I think in terms of running an ethical and sustainable business, it can become tricky for two main reasons for us. One of the products we offer, right? Because we're offering people ethical, sustainable impact type products, and making sure that we've done all the groundwork and the Impact Assessment that I talked about, that can be as tight as time-consuming, and time well spent, but time-consuming and really important to do. And I would love to see more automation around that in the future. And that's difficult at the moment because different fund managers refer to the same thing with different words. And it makes it hard to kind of automate it in certain ways. So, that's one of our challenges is how can we reduce that time spent, but still get the same quality output in terms of the assessment in terms of running the business our sales. I think, I find that pleasantly easy, I would say, well, we're a small business, there's not a huge amount of staff, we've got the bigger issue, as our founder, and they're very, we're always very clear as a board as well, a quarter as that we're trying to achieve. So, I've found that relatively easy, I think in terms of the practicalities of and where we work from, you know, the impact of the energy that we use as individuals the impact of any travel we do, that's harder to do, particularly at the minute, during these unusual times where people are at home and not in the office. And that can be that's something that we are kind of wrestling with just knows how do we as part of our B Corp application, you know, really capture those scope 1, 2,3 emissions, what assumptions are we making around that in a changing world? And I would say that that can be quite a challenge for us at the moment. And we're going through that now, as we speak, in terms of how we quantify that.

Will Richardson 26:42
I don't know whether I should be saying it because I'm not here to sell our services but Compare Your Footprint will help you if you're home working, and they can do the carbon reporting on it.

Jill Jackson 26:54
That would be great because it isn't the easiest thing to do. And some, for example, one of my colleagues lives in a really rural setting, right, and as they are under energy is not easy to get getting energy without spending a huge amount of money. And so, how do we find ways to improve that, and particularly if we're going to be potentially at home for longer? So, I think that there's lots of work that we've got to do as an organisation to really understand that and where those are scenarios that will take longer to change? How can we offset that in the meantime? And as you know, better than I did, there's various ways that we can do that.

Will Richardson 27:36
Because it's an interesting one, isn't it? As we work from home more, and I don't know what your aspirations are, as an organisation coming out of this, but I know that many of our clients are very much going, actually, it's not going to be five days a week in the office going forwards, it will be a mixture, depending on, you know, the industry and depending on the company and the culture within that company. But with that will come the ramifications of working from home. And we know that 20% of the emissions within the UK come from homes. So, therefore, businesses that, some businesses try and make the fabric of their buildings more environmental because they want to be reducing that energy use. Those same businesses will probably be saving money by not paying for the fabric of their businesses. I wonder and I honestly don't know. But I wonder if businesses will start to help their colleagues make their homes more green? Because, as with, you know, we're seeing a trend of trying to help trying to get to a better, more environmental future. And, yeah, I'd be interested, wouldn't it?

Jill Jackson 29:04
I think there's a few things to think about that one. I agree with you, I think in terms of selling. And that and the you know, big institutions will make in terms of their outgoings. I think the point that you made at the start there about whether it will be a five-day-a-week model or not. We've taken a really, I mean, because we're a new business and we're growing, we recruited people during lockdown that will be permanent working from home people. And that's because they don't live anywhere near London. And why would we get them to come to London if there's no added benefit? Right. So, and also from a societal point of view, you're employing people from around the UK, not condensed in one area. And I think that's another positive impact of that. I do think that some of us will have a blended model in terms of office or attending meetings or working from home. I've always worked a blended model of working from home and being in the office. I've done it for years. And, and I've been really pleasantly surprised as to how my colleagues have transitioned to that but in terms of making their homes greener, I completely agree with you. And that's kind of some of the challenges that I'm wrestling with just know, as if we don't have a going for an office five days a week, and what can we reasonably do to make that, you know, actually, that person's home better, you know, try and make sure that they're using a green energy supplier, you know, all of those things, I think, become increasingly important. And, yeah, I mean, I've gone through personally like a transition process of like, who don't use for my energy provider, all of that stuff. And it's been nice to have the time to spend to really work on to the border of that. But I think as an organisation, we've got some work to do around how we make sure that everybody's got, you know, the opportunity to make their homes cleaner, because that's getting even more lasting impact, right? Yeah, like, that's like, a permanent change for that individual, that even if move on from your organisation lasts forever. It's like a permanent change that's made, which is really attractive to me in terms of the impact that we can have as an organisation.

Will Richardson 31:24
Yeah. And that's, I think, what I'm noticing now, running a much larger business than a one-man-band. 2,000 pounds is easier to spend in a business than it is at home. But 2,000 pounds in your home, can actually do an awful lot. Yeah. And so, if you have that mindset, then I don't know. Rather than being frivolous with money within the business and just buying that. I don't know, that stupid coffee machine that you really didn't need you could have, you could have saved yourself a load of money, you could actually put that money into new windows, or new front windows in someone's house. That's triple glazed. Yeah. and stuff. So, I guess it's going to be fun to think of that as a business.

Jill Jackson 32:19
Absolutely anything, the benefit for organisations our side is that we can make those decisions without people can see, do you know what? We'll try that out. And see, you know, how well it goes, what the impact is. And But again, it's the permanent nature of that solution that's really attractive to me. That is, the change the money that you've invested is there for a significant amount of time. And that's, it's way easier than renting space in a building. That's not necessarily that equal. And, you know, trying to backpedal and offset if you can do that in somebody's home. To see that, I do think there's value in us all getting together and seeing each other.

Will Richardson 33:06
Totally. It's so interesting to hear you talk about your employing people around the UK, because we've been employing people and I've, we're based in Edinburgh and London, and, I've been kind of right, we're still going to be employing people in London and still employing people in Edinburgh. And I've opened it up to either Edinburgh or London. And last time, the last person we were recruiting for I did have a conversation with the team going, is this not ridiculous? Why don't we just employ some people from all over the UK? And then we could actually pay people to come and stay in a hotel, you know, two nights a month in either Edinburgh or London, because wherever you are in the UK, you'll be so because I do think that working with people face to face is actually really, really important. And I don't want to have, you know, 30 people based in Edinburgh and London and one person based in Wales. And they would feel ostracised because those people would be getting together. And so, it's that dynamics, and I don't know, it's just really hard. It's just really hard. And then you start going, well, if we're not UK, why can't it be international? Does it matter? And that was my brain just went oh, my word. I've just got overload now.

Jill Jackson 34:28
No, I listen, I know. And it's a really interesting point. And I think there's some rules that you can have in your organisation that can actually work quite well remotely. And it really depends on the individual as well. If that individual actually adds value for them is that they want to work from home. That's the value exchange for them is that's the thing, they will work super hard for you because for them personally that working from home thing is really important. So, I think it's quite nuanced in terms of how it works. And it's the one thing that I'm trying to steer away from is going for that one size fits all approach, because it can actually work. And, and the other thing that I want to make sure is that our organisation reflects the customers that we have. And our customers are from all over the UK. And, and I think that it's so important that our organisation reflects that.

Will Richardson 35:26
Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Is there any advice you can give our listeners on? You know, with what it is that you do? And you know, you've been growing your business and organisation, you've come across some things that you've felt, you've grappled with? And you found it hard to do. Is there any advice that you could give people?

Jill Jackson 35:50
Yeah, I mean, I think the best advice that somebody gave me at the start of this is that we were trying to do something that's pretty groundbreaking in terms of the impact methodology, and all of the various things are in the Big Exchange. And I think if you look at it at the highest level, it can be quite daunting. And you think we're never going to be able to wrestle all these fund managers into the shape to do this, to unite around this one methodology and be able to take different shades of green funds and apply the same methodology. And I think for me, the biggest lesson around that is to do it one step at a time. You know, don't look at it and think, Crikey, that's absolutely overwhelming. How the hell are we going to do that? Look, all this data, look at all this information, I think just get it into bite-sized chunks. I think that it was put to me as don't eat the elephant, Hall. And this was the way that somebody put it to me, I'm not sure. But not a great way to put it. But that probably explains it quite well and visually.

Will Richardson 36:51
Brilliant advice. Thank you. Joe, thank you so much for being on today. It's been really, really interesting talking to you and understanding more about the Big Exchange and what it is that you're trying to do. Thank you.

Jill Jackson 37:04
You're very welcome. It was lovely to talk to you as well