Season 5, Episode 170 : Holidays in 2023 – should you go eco-friendly?

Will Richardson 00:09
Welcome to Sustainability Solved the Sustainable Business Podcast. I'm Will Richardson at Green Element. As the nights draw in and temperatures cool. Many of us will be turning our thoughts towards next summer's travel plans, according to research by booking.com 42% of people polled said that recent news about climate change had influenced them to make more sustainable travel choices. More than half 57% said they wanted to travel more sustainably in the next 12 months. But eco-friendly holidays aren't just about producing less waste, and carbon emissions. They are also about supporting the people and communities we choose to visit.

Will Richardson 00:50
How do we as consumers become better travelers and how do travel businesses ensure they are maximizing their efforts to be more sustainable? Our guests today are Maudie Tomlinson from the Conscious Travel Foundation and writer and journalist Holly Tuppen. Maudie first, can you tell me why the Conscious Travel Foundation was established?

Maudie Tomlinson 01:13
Sure. so the Conscious Travel Foundation was set up by a group of industry friends and peers during the pandemic with the original idea of curating an incredible charity auction of amazing tailor-made holidays to raise money for projects that had had their funding cut off as result of tourism grinding to a halt during the pandemic, whether that was conservation projects linked to a safari camp in Africa or a school in Peru, we will have friends and suppliers on the ground that were really suffering. But the effects of the pandemic lasted much longer than we expected. And the foundation was really born out of the idea that as a collective of like-minded travel businesses, we could achieve far more together than if we worked in individual silos. So today, we are 54 members from all parts of the travel industry. Whether you're a hotelier you are a PR marketing agency or an agent, or a DMC the foundation is a community that, you know is here to support one another on a journey to operate more consciously and responsibly.

Will Richardson 02:08
Holly, can you tell us a little bit about your background and why you decided to specialise in writing about sustainable travel?

Holly Tuppen 02:16
Yeah, sure. Thanks so much for having me on. Well, so yeah, I basically did a trip going around the world about flying about 10 years ago now. And I did the trip purely to just have a proper adventure to kind of go to some places that you don't usually go because when you don't fly, you have to cross through over borders, and you end up in some places where tourists never go, which always creates kind of a better adventure, I think. But when I got back, I really realised how much we experienced because we were going slowly we were using modes of transport that are much more environmentally friendly, like walking or cycling, or sailing. And so I started kind of thinking that's what I'd love to specialize in. And I worked for several organizations. I worked for Green Traveller when that was being set up about 10 years ago, we worked with destinations to help them create green guides. And then I worked for a big organization called the sustainability Hospitality Alliance, which was really bringing together a lot of the global hotel groups to collaborate around sustainability covering issues like water to kind of human rights and labour rights and now I'm a freelancer and I do consultancy work for travel businesses, and I do copywriting always specialising in sustainability. And I'm also a journalist

Will Richardson 03:38
Maudie, sustainable travel can have net benefits. Can you give any examples of how your members are using travel to make a positive impact on the planet?

Maudie Tomlinson 03:47
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as I said before, all of our members come from different parts of the industry. So their impact comes from different places. However, a good example is one of our agent members and founders Joro experiences, they are really hot on leaving a positive legacy from every trip that they create. And to do that, they create an impact report for their clients showcasing the carbon cost of travel, and also what charities and foundations they're supporting by traveling with them. This could be charities that you're supporting directly or projects that the accommodation they're staying at is funding to just existing, for example, staying at a property like solar Luna, which is a stunning property in the Sacred Valley in Peru, you'd be supporting a school and the 20 children that live there. So traveling in it is very much having a very positive impact. It's all about being transparent and also showing the power of travel when done well. Ultimately, we believe that everybody in the value chain and has a positive impact. And at the end of the day, we want to influence the traveler to make good decisions on where they travel.

Will Richardson 04:48
Okay, that makes no sense. That's, that's awesome. Holly, can you give us some examples of the types of holidays which benefit conservation efforts and the destinations that are visited?

Holly Tuppen 05:00
Yeah, sure, I think, first of all, it's not really necessarily a specific type of holiday that has a positive impact on nature and people in places that we visit, sadly, so because it'd be quite easy for travelers if they could just tick a box of I want to do this type of holiday. And then I know it's doing good. But sadly, we will need to do a little bit more background research, but kind of when it's done well, tourism can play a huge role in financing conservation efforts and also nature restoration. So kind of more regenerative projects where actually traveling money is being used to restore ecosystems or kind of protect the wildlife that otherwise might suffer from extractive industries like whether it's logging or agriculture. But to do that, really kind of it has to be in a way in which people and communities are benefiting too, because ultimately, unless kind of surrounding communities are benefiting from the conservation of ecosystems and wildlife, then it is unsustainable in the future, it is unlikely to survive as a project. So I worked for an organization called The Long Run, which works with over 40 Different lodges and travel experiences around the world to protect 23 million acres of ecosystems. And by staying in places like these travelers not only helped to fund the protection and conservation of ecosystems, but they also provide financial and social sustainability to the surrounding communities and cultures. And those projects can range from in the UK there are examples of rewilding projects like net pay in Sussex where you can go and visit and any money you spend there will go straight back into the rewilding of that area, or places. I've recently been lucky enough to travel to Kenya where I was on Borana Conservancy, which is a huge landscape project that has successfully protected I think it's about 14%, of Kenya's rhino population, has huge benefits to the surrounding communities, a lot of whom work on the property, but also receive funds to create their own projects and infrastructure.

Will Richardson 07:14
Okay. And Maudie, does being more sustainable mean higher costs for businesses?

Maudie Tomlinson 07:20
Well, I would say yes, and no, but it's all about choice. There's obviously a cost to investing in a sustainability consultant and bringing expertise into your business. But you know, being responsible is also good for business too. And as Holly said, before, you know, more and more travelers are looking now to travel more consciously, and you'll be attracting the right type of traveler and the right type of client for your business. But in simplistic terms, reducing your carbon footprint can also save you money. One of our mentors to the foundation, Charlie Cotton, who runs a great business collective carbon consultancy often talks about co-benefits. For example, if you insulate your office the smaller your bills will be or if you reduce your air miles by moving some of your meetings online, you're going to save on airfares, so we don't have to be entirely perfect, but we do need to start making changes.

Will Richardson 08:15
Okay and Holly, you've written a book called Sustainable Travel. Can you tell us a couple of things you advise in it, please?

Holly Tuppen 08:24
Yeah, sure. So I really kind of hope that the book provides all the information that people need to make more informed choices when booking a holiday, I think it's quite overwhelming for consumers to identify places that are more responsible or not. So what I've tried to do is cover everything from identifying sustainable places to say. So for example, one tip is a big problem in the hospitality industry is that construction has a huge carbon footprint. So I think the construction industry is responsible for 21% of the world's carbon emissions. But often when hotel companies make claims around being either no zero carbon or reaching net zero or carbon negative, they don't actually take into account the carbon from the construction of their property. So one of the recommendations I make is to really look for either places that have been built with very low impact, usually using very local building methods, which will often be more sustainable, because there'll be in keeping to the natural environment and the climate, or looking for properties that have renovated existing buildings. So rather than building from scratch, so that's just one example of looking for sustainable places to stay. But in the book, I also talk about ways in which we can travel to protect nature, and ways in which we can empower cultures. There's even a whole chapter on how we can travel to help places overcome from natural or human-made disasters. And there's some lovely examples in the book of the kind of walking routes in Eastern Europe that have really become a kind of symbol of peace between countries that decades ago were at war with one another. Yeah. So there's a huge range in there. There's also a very chunky chapter on reducing carbon since I feel like that's such a critical part of overcoming the climate crisis, but often still hugely, kind of mystified area for consumers and very difficult for people to get their heads around.

Will Richardson 10:28
Which leads me to the next question, the elephant in the room Maudie, sustainable travel, and flying. How do we get past that?

Maudie Tomlinson 10:38
Yeah, well, I think as Holly said, you know, we need to tackle it kind of head on and be honest about flying, you know, we're not going to stop flying. And we need airlines and governments to find solutions. But on an individual level, if you're a travel business or traveler that clogs up air miles, so you do need to think about how essential that trip is when you are flying. As we've said before, when it's done, right, travel is such a brilliant distributor of wealth. So I don't think anyone's saying don't fly. But really think about the value of that trip to you. And also to the people that you're visiting. Why am I going on this on this trip? Holly probably knows a lot more about it than me. But in the longer term, we'll be looking at electric planes, electric hovercraft, and so on. And we're definitely seeing the return of the industry to slower travel, and train travel overnight trains in Europe and so on.

Will Richardson 11:26
Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. I think you're right. Absolutely. Right. I think flying will always be a part of the future, I do genuinely think that we are in a period of much more peace, because we understand each other's cultures. And how's that going to continue if we can't travel? Because we're not going to teleport to different places. So it just, makes sense that we do, and technology will change as well.

Maudie Tomlinson 11:54
Yeah. And just until technology catches up, everybody's got to play their part and just reducing their footprint when they can.

Will Richardson 12:01
Holly, what innovative, eco-friendly ideas are you seeing in hotels and accommodations?

Holly Tuppen 12:06
Um, well, yeah, lots out there are hotels that are actually really good kind of hotbeds for innovation. And something that's kind of popped up more recently, are kind of back-of-house sustainability tours, in certain properties, which are kind of building in popularity, which I think is really exciting, because people are thinking, Okay, I want to understand what are these green solutions? And maybe people are thinking, how can I bring these back into my everyday life, which is great. So if we kind of think of travel as really a vehicle for education, as much as it is for having a nice relaxing time, I really get excited about innovations that are not only benefiting maybe one property, but are actually kind of collaborative efforts where everyone's working together, and maybe might help to totally change infrastructure within a destination. So one example that I'm writing about at the moment is the blue Apple Beach Resort in Colombia, where the founder, Portia Hart has done a lot of work trying to understand how the property could better recycle glass and tackle food waste because there's no community infrastructure where she is. So she actually set up a glass recycling scheme and food waste compost system that now kind of a thing eight or nine other businesses are also using. So it's just a brilliant example of how hotels can have a real ripple effect with the eco-activities, which is great.

Will Richardson 13:41
Maudie, and Holly, what questions should we be asking businesses before we book our next holiday?

Holly Tuppen 13:47
Well, so ideally, yeah, we need to be asking lots and lots of questions. I always say people like how can we be more sustainable on holiday or help to kind of drive the sustainable travel movement? And one way is just asking questions every step of the way. The more hotels and travel businesses hear customers asking questions around sustainability, the more they are likely to act. So my advice is when you're asking questions, or whether you're trying to scrutinize whether someone is really responsible or not, I always say to look for those businesses that are really consistent with their sustainability messaging. So it shouldn't just be a kind of site tab on their website menu, but it really needs to be embedded throughout their mission, that branding their experiences, and sales. So if on the sales call, you ask a question around, whether is this money going to be helping the local community. Where does my money go? Can you tell me a little bit about the conservation efforts on the ground? If the salespeople can't answer those questions, then you've really just got to kind of ring alarm bells of whether this company is really taking sustainability seriously.

Maudie Tomlinson 14:55
Yeah, absolutely. I think as a consumer you know when you are looking to organise is a holiday or a trip, you want to have some kind of tangible evidence perhaps also that you're buying from someone doing good. I don't know whether it's worth mentioning, you know, looking at certifications, like the long run, for example, or B Corp, there's so many out there with over 170. In the travel industry,

Will Richardson 15:17
that's got to be confusing.

Maudie Tomlinson 15:18
It can be a little confusing, but you know, anyone that has a certification or is working towards a certification that is certified by the GST, I think is a travel business that's, you know, striving to do good or certainly on that journey. So, you know, as a consumer, it's definitely worth looking out for those.

Will Richardson 15:37
So 170 different certifications, I'm just thinking about if I was to be booking a holiday, what would be a good way? You say, certified by GST? Is that quite prominent? Is that quite easy to see?

Maudie Tomlinson 15:53
The GSTC is the kind of accreditation board but the main certifications look out for and travel would be B Corps a really good one. Then also travel life. There is The Long Run, of course. Holly, what other certifications are good to look out for?

Holly Tuppen 16:11
Yeah, there are loads. I mean, EarthCheck is fairly rigorous. I think it's tricky. I think, as you Yeah, as you mentioned, there's I think there might even be over 200 awards. And it's really confusing. It's really confusing for consumers to know what all these different badges mean. In reality, when you're booking a hotel, you're not going to spend half of your time researching what certification schemes me now. But that's why I think as a consumer asking the questions, certifications can act as a little bit of an indicator, okay, you can tick that box. They've obviously got some level of commitment because they've bothered to apply for a certification even though in reality, they do or mean very different things. But after that, really, it's kind of looking for that consistency of message and asking questions directly at the point of researching and booking.

Maudie Tomlinson 17:05
Because often properties that are actually doing the most don't talk about it. So it's the opposite of a kind of greenwashing. It's green hushing. So you're absolutely right, just having those conversations can really kind of pull out information that they might not otherwise be shouting about.

Will Richardson 17:18
You see that in the wine industry. I remember, I used to work for Travelbag years ago and found out that Petrus, one of the most expensive wines in the world was organic. And the reason why they never said anything about the fact they were organic was because they just assumed that that was what the best people did because they've always done it. Putting pesticides and fertilisers into their soil was not a good way to get good. Wine. It's interesting, isn't it? That hushing?

Maudie Tomlinson 17:50
Yeah, it's just what you do, you know, because you're you. That's your ethos, and you're running a, you know, good business. You don't think to share it.

Will Richardson 17:59
So, I guess in a similar vein, what are the things to avoid? Is it cruises, places with poor human rights records, flying, and short breaks?

Holly Tuppen 18:10
This is such a big topic. Sorry. I don't know. I would probably reframe it as kind of one thing that I would put, you know, always look out for is who owns what matters, I would always look to book with an organization or a property that was kind of owner operated. And as Holly said, before, you know, really check on how that property was being run and do my due diligence.

Will Richardson 18:35
I think what you're articulating is the fact that it's actually incredibly hard. You can't just go no to cruises. You can't say no to short breaks, you have to look at it and ask questions.

Maudie Tomlinson 18:45
You have to weigh it up. Because for example, with cruises, yes, they are, you know, in the main big floating hotels that pull up at a destination, there's often not a lot going back into the destination when people get off cruise ships, you know, it's can lead to kind of overcrowding of destinations, all the food and beverage has been consumed on board. So it's not giving a lot back to the community that are visiting. On the other hand cruises. For some people, that's perhaps a really good option of travel for them if they aren't very able. So there's always pros and cons to thinking about travel and it can be very nuanced. So yeah, it's quite difficult.

Holly Tuppen 19:22
I'm probably a bit more hardline than Maudie. I would say I'm absolutely no cruise I think there are a few smaller cruises. Often river cruises, for example, a much more sustainable they're much smaller than ocean-going cruises. There are a few cruise businesses that are making an effort with sustainability but they've got absolutely miles to go. We're nowhere near being able to say that cruise can ever have a positive impact because ultimately, there's no economic benefit to a destination. If anything, there's often a negative impact places have to build huge cruise ports at huge constant issue loss to be able to accept cruise ships. Destinations rarely benefit from cruise ships coming visitors often hop off on board, take a load of photos, overcrowded destination and then get back on their cruise ship. A lot of the cruise lines have been seriously fined for environmental abuses within the ocean. But they're wealthy enough that they're just happy to pay their fines. And they don't really seem to be making any changes. And that's often for sewage release at sea. So yeah, for me, I can't, there's very few cases where a cruise is of benefit to anyone. And I totally take your point in more detail. It's an amazingly accessible option. But I think, let's get the rest of the travel industry up to speed or more accessible, rather than relying on cruises, maybe for that one. And then other no goes for me increasingly are kind of big chain hotels. So I did used to work for quite a lot of the big chain hotels. And I know that you know, there's a lot of people in those businesses that are really committed to trying to be more sustainable. And I know that we can all quote the brands that have said, we're going to ban single-use plastic by 2030. Or we're going to be net zero carbon emissions by 2030. But for me, ultimately, sustainable travel is really about making sure that our money is going to local people, and where local people are running destinations in the place where they live, and they love and they breathe the air and they drink the water. And they experience that local area and love it, they are always going to be more committed to sustainability, they're always going to try and create a business that benefits their local community and their local environment, more so than big corporate chain hotels that ultimately answer to shareholders that are miles away from these destinations, and don't really care what's going on on the ground. And that's, that's my two, they're my two rants.

Will Richardson 21:56
No good. I like a rant

Maudie Tomlinson 21:59
and short flights as well. Got to throw those in there as well. If you can go by train, then do it. I mean, France leading the way by banning domestic flights was is a great thing.

Will Richardson 22:10
It is good, but we're talking about it as a team. I think yesterday or the day before. And if you've got the infrastructure like France has with the fast train travel, then it works incredibly well. I live in Edinburgh, and I always train to London, I never fly. But that's because of what I do. And it's because of what I understand and know that it's a four-and-a-half-hour journey. Whereas it could be a two-hour journey on a train. So we don't have the infrastructure in order to ban stuff like that, I think.

Holly Tuppen 22:41
Yeah, I think I think the cost is also hugely at play as well, isn't it? There's parts of Europe, rail travel is hugely subsidised. Yeah, to make it much more affordable. And I think, you know, this is where kind of consumer pressure and kind of making sure that we're all making the right noises about what kind of infrastructure we really want is also quite important. But yeah, sadly, there's lots of parts of travel, which is so dependent on infrastructure as a consumer, it's hard to necessarily make the decision you want to make because of all the limiting factors.

Maudie Tomlinson 23:14
Yeah, we had a debate on this beginning of the year with the Conscious Travel Foundation and Justin Francis was part of it. And obviously, Justin's talked a fair bit about green tax and taxing aviation fuel more heavily to invest back into rail, which seems like a very smart idea to me, but it's just so prohibitively expensive to travel by rail in the UK.

Will Richardson 23:37
When I don't understand why aviation fuel isn't taxed I just it beggars belief

Maudie Tomlinson 23:42
goes back to the war. Second World War, isn't it? And it's not.

Will Richardson 23:45
I believe his belief why, why we would have such short-sighted views. Let's not go there. Any personal small bugbears? On that note like plastic cutlery, gift bags, wristbands, etc.

Maudie Tomlinson 23:59
All of the above? My bugbear is when our property leaves a sign in the hotel room saying that they won't wash your towels unless you leave them on the floor and then they wash your towels every day. That was just a very small thing that I have been known to go and speak to them about. Yeah, which is actually where green washing came from, isn't it? So the term

Will Richardson 24:17
I believe? There you go.

Holly Tuppen 24:19
Yeah. Yeah, I think I if I can't fill up my water bottle, I usually kind of stomp around a lot until particularly kind of, you know, I don't know, train stations or airports or it's often maybe you've managed to curate a great itinerary between all these nice eco minded properties that are very hot on stuff like refilling your water bottle, but then it's all the kind of in between infrastructure where it all falls down and you find yourself being forced to buy kind of water and plastic bottles that always stress me out a bit.

Will Richardson 24:58
Both what advice This would you give to travel businesses who want to become more eco friendly and don't know where to start?

Holly Tuppen 25:06
I think you know, starting is the hardest bit of this journey. And sadly, there is a lot of greenwashing out there. And I think a lot of businesses are really nervous to start their sustainability journey, because they think if they're not doing it all 100%, right, then they're gonna get called up for greenwashing. Or they're gonna get kind of a rant from someone like me. But starting is really, really important. And so not maybe the most helpful advice, but I would say just get started, like, have a look at your business and have a think kind of, for yourself, like what is really important to you what kind of really strikes a review in this whole sustainability debate? And maybe start from that, I think that often when sustainability actually does really come from the heart, or come from something that people at the top feel really passionate about, it can have a much kind of greater impact on the whole business.

Maudie Tomlinson 26:00
Yeah, no, absolutely. We really found this with the conscious travel foundation that so many people came to us and said, We just don't know where to start so much. So we actually put together quite a simple toolkit alongside someone kind of brilliant minds and industry, just an absolute in his simple step by step to getting on the path. And that was received really well. So I think actually aligning yourself with an organisation that can help you learn whether that's The Long Run, or the Conscious Travel Foundation, or lots of amazing organizations out there. Just get started, as Holly said,

Will Richardson 26:30
Yeah, I think that's it just get started. Don't overthink. You see, so many organizations overthink it, and it's quite simple. Just do something that's meaningful and transparent.

Holly Tuppen 26:42
Yeah, there's so many free resources out there at the moment, at the long run, we just created a report, which really outlines all the free sustainability resources available for kind of SMEs across the industry. And there's heaps. So I think with a little bit of background research, it's quite easy to now identify where are some kind of quick wins on sustainability that really doesn't take too much effort to just go for it and implement. And I think it's really important that people realize that sustainability is very much a journey. No one's perfect, and everyone is striving for kind of continual improvement. So just start just getting on the journey is a good place to be.

Will Richardson 27:24
Brilliant. So final question. January is the busiest time for booking holidays. Do both of you have a sustainable holiday in mind for yourself in 2023?

Maudie Tomlinson 27:37
Yeah, next year, I'll be going to Cornwall very exotic, but very sustainable. But when I next jump on a plane, I'd actually love to go to a place called the safari series in Kenya, which I know Holly's just been lucky enough to visit. I think my children would be delighted to go there. So I'm plotting that.

Holly Tuppen 27:55
Yeah, I mean, it was amazing and highly recommend the Safari Series. I feel Laikipia in northern Kenya, which has been when I was there, they were on the back end of kind of a two year horrific drought. They're still really suffering from drought actually up there. But they have just had rain this last week, which having been there and witness what they're all experiencing, I was kind of felt really excited. But it's an incredible place. So yeah, well, I've always got about 20 holidays that I'm thinking about doing mostly because of my job. So at the moment, I'm very torn, I would love to take my kids to Sri Lanka, because I think it's a destination that really needs tourists at the moment, they've had an absolutely shocking run of it from kind of the awful Easter bombings and then COVID, and then kind of the political and economic turmoil that has gone on there. For a kind of island nation that really does depend on tourism for a lot of its GDP. So I feel like that's a destination, I'd love to go to I'd love to get my kids kind of a proper, totally different culture. And that kind of coming off the airplane and all the smells and the sounds that just feel like you're a million miles from home. But of course, I'm totally conflicted because that would mean getting on a long haul flight. And we don't really fly as a family. We haven't flown as a family for about five years now. So yeah, but there's some brilliant new walking routes that have just been established up in the tea trails of Sri Lanka. So if I did go there, I'd like to take the kids and do a long distance kind of a to be walking route where you're staying in all the local tea houses and some nice eco lodges up there.

Will Richardson 29:30
Brilliant. Well, thank you both for coming on to the podcast and exploring sustainable travel. It's been absolutely fascinating talking to and listening to both of you. Thank you.

Maudie Tomlinson 29:43
Thanks very much. Well, that's it for

Will Richardson 29:45
this episode of sustainability sold the sustainable business podcast. Thank you to my guests, Holly Tuppen, and Maudie Tomlinson. You'll find more information about both of them and links to their websites and social media. In our show notes. I'm Will Richardson, at Green Element and if you have any feedback or questions you can get in contact with us at @greenelement on social media. And don't forget to follow this podcast in your favorite app, or write us a review. Thank you for listening. And for more ideas and discussion about sustainable business, check out our back catalogue. Thank you. Take care.