Season 5, Episode 190 : The Football Sustainability Index

Will: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Sustainability Solved the sustainable business podcast. I'm Will Richardson, the founder and CEO of the Green Element Group, incorporating Green Element, Compare Your Footprint, and of course, Sustainability Solved. We've been empowering organizations to manage their environmental impacts for a just and sustainable world since 2004.

Charlie: And I'm Charlie Luxton, an architectural designer who focuses on sustainable buildings. In this episode, as usual, we're talking about sustainability, but we're venturing into slightly new territory. and talking about football. Today, the latest version of the football sustainability index is published and Niall Cooper from Fair Game is joining us to talk about the problems in the [00:01:00] sport and what needs fixing. Welcome Niall. So can you tell us a little bit about what the sustainability index covers?

Niall: It covers a whole range of things, and it covers things like environmental impact, but also equality standards, financial sustainability, ban and community engagement, all things that are really quite fundamental to how a football club operates.

I think a lot of people have this maybe naive idea that it's just about 11 players on a Saturday afternoon, and that's what it's about. But actually, a lot of football clubs are hubs of their community. They represent history and traditions going back a long, long time. But also nowadays, a lot of football clubs will also provide services.
So you'll have things like dementia groups or, um, walking football, or you'll have, uh, food banks, or you'll have environmental programs all being run and organized by the club. by the local football club. And that's really where, you know, we're very [00:02:00] keen to see football moving in that direction. Because when we talk about sustainability in a fair game context, it's more than just the environment.
It's about actually sustaining that community and also sustaining the long term future and history of those clubs that. You know, we believe really are the center of so many communities up and down the country.

Charlie: So it's sort of looking at the full wraparound, I suppose, you know, the ESG, so the environment, the social and the governance side and picking up on all of those equally important sort of elements.

Niall: Yeah, it's exactly that. And I think where, where we're at with, with football is that it just kind of hasn't got into that space enough, you know, hasn't really championed those areas as much as it could be, we've got too much of a risk culture. What that basically means is that To succeed is seen to be, it's all about, um, spending loads of money, like paying loads of stuff on players wages.
And that actually puts the [00:03:00] whole future of a club at risk. What we're seeing and have been seeing is increasingly the importance of the wages of your third choice left back being more important than your community program in a lot of clubs. And you know, that's something that really needs to be addressed.
With that, again, we've brought together. the clubs that care, if you like, the clubs that actually do think more long term about how football can be that force for good. And it's that voice we're really trying to amplify in the game and trying to get to a culture where football's finances and the financial flow starts rewarding those clubs.
And that's the kind of change that we're trying to get. It might sound radical but it's not. It's, it's all heading in that there's an opportunity now for it to change with a new football governance bill that's making its way through parliament and we're, we're hopeful that that's, uh, can lead to something quite You know, much more sustainable in football.

Will: And what sort of [00:04:00] figures do you have, in a nutshell, what are you, what are you looking at in the main, really?

Niall: Every year, the Premier League receives of 3. 19 billion pounds, billion pounds, um, in football finances. Most of that will disappear on players wages, uh, over 85 percent of it stays within the Premier League, and not much of it goes down to clubs lower down the pyramid.
What we are advocating for is that a new independent regulator would look at how that distribution Is set, um, which is kind of really common in lots of other industries, lots of other regulated areas. You'd have like set parameters about where that money should go and how it should be distributed and what things it should address, you know, not, not all the regulators are great, but I'm going to use a probably a relatively bad example of Offwat, but the idea with Offwat is you have multi million pound [00:05:00] industry and the people that really matters about is what happens when you turn the tap on and the theory of a regulator there is the. the customer, the person who turns the tap on, has certain protections. And the same should apply to football, that there are certain protections about your community football club and, and all of those sort of things and what it should be encouraging. And that's actually not that difficult to implement.
So what we're talking about is at the moment, um, A football club might spend £100, 000 on its community programme. Now remember that that's in sort of League 2 or something or the National League. At the moment 3. 19 billion is what the Premier League gets. So where that equates in a kind of simple way is for every 1, 000 that a club in the Premier League gets, 15 pence goes to a National League South or North club. So that's a club like that might be based in Tunbridge Wells or, um, [00:06:00] Chester or Ebbsfleet or places like that. And there are loads and loads of towns that are like that. They're getting just 15 pence. If you were to, Say double or triple, or if it goes to what the average attendance would be, which would take it to something like 22 pounds

Charlie: in a thousand, 22 pounds in a thousand.
So 2. 2,

Niall: 22 pounds,

Charlie: 2. 2%. Is my maths right there.
Yeah, something like that.

Niall: Yeah. So, but that difference, if you imagine in that local community. What is that club providing? What does it do for your, you know, the food banks, the dementia clubs I mentioned, you know, the kind of school programs that all these clubs do.
And you can actually look at ring fencing that money through those parameters about how that's done. If you have an effective regulator, that is an absolute game changer in so many communities and towns. And, you know, financially in terms of where we're all [00:07:00] kind of pinching our belts, you know, there's no promise of any new tax rises.
There's no kind of likely new significant investment. This actually is. Potentially new investment that is free from the tax, the tax payers burden, if you like, and it could make a very significant difference. And actually, you know, that's what, what is an extra 15 pence to the Premier League. For that one club, you know, out of a thousand pounds, it's, it's such a minuscule amount, but actually it's such a significant impact on, uh, those local communities where those clubs operate.

Charlie: And one supposes then that if, if you apply that across the board to all of the premiership clubs, proportionately, you effectively just slightly reduce the pay capacity for top rates players or players in general, and say, well, we can divert a little bit of this money. down the food chain to grow the grassroots and to really help communities.
It's sort of a, I mean, is it a sort of stealth tax on some level or, [00:08:00] or, or more of a sort of, I suppose it is, isn't it? It's redistribution of wealth strategy.

Niall: It is a bit of that, but it's about Short termism versus long termism. So, you know, one, actually, if you are, and also thinking outside the box, if you are a multi billionaire and all you're caring about is your own club, then the Premier League's attitude is fine because it defends your, actually makes you richer.
But if you're thinking about the health of football in the country. And you're thinking about actually making football clubs a hub of a community that provides a service and gets people, you know, if you, if you're running community programs, if you're running those school programs and those food banks and the dementia clubs and, you know, uh, environmental programs.
Out of a football club, people will have a more affinity. And we've seen that for our research to that football club. They want to be there. They want to come in there for that kind of [00:09:00] connection. And also if you look at extra money towards football academies and coaching programs, what you have is more talent.
So you have. Stronger base. You have more talent coming through. Remember that the current England team bar one or two of all come through from lower league clubs originally. So you have this greater talent pool. You have this greater community connection and a great community connection actually probably means more people coming through the door, more people buying the merchandise and so on.
So you have a much more stronger base. That actually benefits football overall, but it takes an holistic oversight of people to say, right, actually, this is what's better for the game overall, rather than my individual club. And one of the problems we have in football at the moment is the people that run the game are people who are only interested about their own individual club, not about the wider sustainability of football and the communities they operate with it. That's the bit that we need to look at breaking. And with this football governance bill that's going through parliament, that is a potential to do that. [00:10:00] And that's why I think we, we need to be looking towards, um, if we're really going to change, uh, the way football operates and make it more sustainable and make sure that it actually strengthens communities.
Um, and that's, that's, I think. a really positive potential direction of travel. We'd hope, you know, that, that a new government takes on board.

Will: It's using sustainability as a whole, isn't it? And actually, um, I can see this firsthand with AFC Wimbledon. And the community and the way that that football team resonates with the whole of that community.
I'm from Wimbledon, and my mum is not a football fan at all. But, I tell you what, she loves AFC Wimbledon because they do the food banks, because they, they do so much that you've just talked about. And, I think that that's really powerful because one of my questions was, well, why is, you know, what's, that's great having these great things to do, but what's, what's in it for football, but you've just described exactly what it [00:11:00] is in football.
It really does get that, get people thinking about football, possibly wouldn't even thought about football in the first place.

Niall: Exactly that. That's because it is more than just the match, you know, it's more than just the 11 players or whatever that squad is. It's about that kind of connection and that affinity and it is realizing that football can be a force for good.
Can actually help shape and bring those communities together and offer something, a connection, um, that is one of the big things behind sustainability. Uh, I mean, I admit Will, I didn't, I didn't know you, your mum was an AFC Wimbledon fan. I mean, I was on the board of AFC Wimbledon for a while. So I'm happy to hear all of that.
Will: And my brother was one of the people that, Um, put money into AFC Wimbledon as well.

Niall: Oh, well, there you go. I mean, you know, as a, we were, we're all volunteers at AFC Wimbledon at that, that level. I was a directly elected fan onto the board. So, um, uh, it's, it's a real, we, we did a quite an active thing about trying to be that kind of community club.[00:12:00]
Right. You know, and the clubs that have joined their game are ones that have got that same sort of ethos.
Will: Yeah. You

Niall: know, we've all been a bit frustrated because football in a lot of places didn't have that ethos and the clubs that were picking up the phone and complaining about it were just one club, you know, the voice was small.
And what the key was to bring those like minded clubs together to say, actually, there is an alternative future for football. There is something that is richer and better. I mean, you know, for those AFC Wimbledon fans, the results have been pretty shocking. And last season was an exception, but they're pretty shocking for five years, but the clubs, actually grown in terms of its community reach and its sustainability because that's the active way they've done.
And it means that over time the club is much more healthier because of the approach that we've taken. And that is being replicated in other places. Like another club would be like Lincoln city. We've seen slow growth, but they've got massive commitment towards their community and what, and their outreach and their sustainable approach.
Um, you know, it's those clubs that Don't [00:13:00] think short term that think long term that can thrive. And what I think we need to be moving towards is that financial flow, rewarding the clubs that take that approach because that's where you will see culture change.

Charlie: So who is currently regulating football, uh, you know, and who are you seeking to effectively usurp through this, the football governance bill?
Niall: So that's really interesting. So if you looked at who, how, who controls football rather than governs football, that's, that's the kind of connection because the governance of football should be the FAA. But the actual purse strings, and you know, it is one of those, you have to follow the money, of who's controlling football, it's the Premier League.
Um, you know, the Premier League are the ones who fund a whole range of things, but the most of the money from the FA comes through from Premier League's participation in the FA Cup. The Professional Football Association is majority funded by the Premier League. The League Managers Association, majority funded by the Premier League.
They kick it out. Uh, who are a great organization, majority funded by the premier league, the football [00:14:00] support association, majority funded by the premier league. So all of these things are all, all the voices of potential criticism are funded by the premier league. Um, and obviously the premier league soul is a, uh, a business that has its stakeholders are 20 billionaires.
That's, that's who runs the premier league whose sole interest is in the growth and the Uh, income generation for the 20 clubs of the Premier League, that's their remit. You know, they do a fantastic job. If you looked at their business model about making more money for midge billionaires, they're great at it, but they're the ones who control the game.
So then, you know, naturally as a billionaire owner of a Premier League football club, why would you particularly care about what's happening at Carlisle or, or, um, Ebbsfleet or Tunbridge Angels or, you know, Darlington or Gateshead or Lincoln or whatever, it's, it's not really of your interest, you know, why would that matter?
What matters is whether you can get, um, a player with [00:15:00] like, uh, you know, more money that they earn in a week than us three might earn in a lifetime.

Charlie: And how do you see the, the, the current bill and what does it set out and how does it change that structure?

Niall: See, the, the bill is almost there, but it needs slight improvements, and I think we've seen quite a good, uh, noise coming from, uh, the, the political parties about trying to improve it.
So the, the bill has a section, I could bore you with the clauses, I've read it far too many times, and I'll, I'll wait, but the, there's a section there. Uh, you know, I could, you know, question me, say what's on page 36. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's part six for those of you who, who,
Charlie: thanks man. I'm making a note.
I'm noting this down. Yeah.

Niall: Clause 58.

Charlie: Yes. Got it. 58. Yep. Yep.

Niall: Right. So in there is that talks about, um, backstop [00:16:00] powers, what that is, is if the, if a financial distribution, because it's the Premier League organised the financial distribution down the rest of the pyramid, that has to be approved. Um, well, you have a deal and the Premier League put forward a deal and the alternate, the other body involved, which in this case would be the English Football League, and they have to kind of agree. And if they can't come to agreement, then the independent regulator can say, Oh, well, you know, you need to think about these things. And then if they still can't agree, then eventually the independent regulator can say, well, we'll do that deal or that deal.
So out of those, which sounds okay, except that the voting, when you're looking at the voting structure of those two organizations, that's a bit flawed. And it actually doesn't look at the wider ecosystem of football beyond the, the low reach of the EFL and certainly their national league and the lower league and on all the rest of it and doesn't really address some of the issues we're talking about here.
What we're suggesting is basically a change in the order of how that process works. So the [00:17:00] first thing that a distribution deal needs to do is consider what we would call parameters about what is acceptable within football. So that's like, does this club, is this club financially sustainable? Is it investing in community engagement?
Is it investing in equality standards? Has it got environmental issues? And the clubs that do, that score well are the ones that should get a larger slice of that pie. Obviously, there's still a divisional weighting, but that starts to encourage clubs to spend responsibly. At the moment. There is no encouragement for a club to spend responsibility.
In fact, completely opposite. The encouragement is to try and overspend so you can make this big jump. And there is a huge jump between divisions financially to get to that next level. And the only way you're going to progress up the pyramid is to massively overspend and hope that you succeed. And if you don't, then frankly, you go bust club goes to administration. Loads of local businesses go out. business, they go bankrupt, which we've seen 64 times [00:18:00] since the turn of the century. So it's really quite common.

Charlie: What this, whoa, this, what this, this century in the last 24 years. 64 clubs have gone bust in the last 24 years.

Niall: Gone into administration.

Charlie: Gone into administration.

Niall: Right, so they don't go bust. The club name still exists, but what you see is all the local suppliers who, uh, are owed money by that club, basically getting either nothing or 1p the pound,
which is basically

Charlie: How many clubs are there roughly that, you know, the 64 gone bust, out of how many?

Niall: That would be out of 92.

Charlie: What?

Will: Wow. That's a huge percentage.

Niall: Remember though, that there are some clubs that have gone into administration multiple times. So it's not like,

Will: Oh, okay.

Niall: I think in that period, Portsmouth may have gone into administration three times in that period or something like that.

Charlie: We're still talking about over 50 percent failures, like structural failures, well over 50 percent of the time. I mean, that is a.

Niall: Yeah.

Charlie: That is a business that desperately needs some sort of regulation, right? I mean,

Niall: Yeah, [00:19:00] totally. I mean, let me add on to that. There's a phrase called technical insolvency. So that's when, you know, a club, uh, is actually losing money hand over foot. 58 percent of clubs in the top four divisions are technically insolvent.
That means if their owner was to walk away tomorrow, turn off the financial tap, that club would be bust. They only survive because there is a benefactor pumping money into that club. And that benefactor is basically pumping money into that club because they're trying to look to see where they can jump up to that next financial level.
So they're gambling and what they're gambling with is they're gambling with the history and traditions of that club, but they're also gambling with the livelihood of all of those suppliers who helped that club.

Will: Okay. So moving in, moving back to. The ESG kind of conversation, and we were talking about players being paid, you know, [00:20:00] equal pay between women and male.
Um, I'd also like to talk about what Dale Vince has been doing with regards to his club and the environmental impact of, um, what they have achieved. And how that plays into what it is that you're doing or does it not?

Niall: So yeah, interesting both of those. So let's pick up with Dale. Dale's been behind something called the green code, um, which is, uh, a really good positive step within football where Fair Game would want to take the green code is to the point that that becomes part of the sustainability index, which, you know, we, we want to adapt and strengthen the, the index.
Obviously that's, you know, that's just come out. So. It's about constant improvement. But the idea of that is you, you're rating all the clubs on a whole criteria. And then on that football financial distribution, the clubs that score highly on that index are the ones that get more [00:21:00] money. So where we would take Dale's concept is, it's not just about, a kit mark, it'sabout a financial reward as well.
Um, because if you start rewarding financially football clubs, then you will start seeing them going, you'll have the chief financial officer that kind of going like, Oh, if we'd stop taking these environmental measures and these social impact measures and these community measures, it actually leads to more financial resource for the club, and that's where we think you will see that change.
I mean, it's one of the great conversations I had with DCMS to say, if you want culture change tomorrow, reward it.

Charlie: So just to say, Dale Vince is the founder of Ecotricity, isn't he? And he's picked, he's, he bought forest green rovers, am I correct? And has got a very ambitious plan for the stadium for transport and for green energy and food and all of that kind of stuff, hasn't he?

Will: The whole football team are vegan as well. And he's proved that they are able to perform at a very high level under, as, as vegans as [00:22:00] well. And I think that's it. And I think because it's. It's holistic, isn't it? We need to be looking at absolutely everything. And so here's he behind the sustainability index?
Niall: He's behind the, the green code and it's not, um, um, we've had conversations with forest green rovers. The, I'm going to make Dale sound a little bit, not, not quite as brilliant as we all might like is that, um, is that Dale sees himself as a trailblazer and it's very much his baby.

Will: Yeah.

Niall: So, you know, it's, it's about for us, we're about collaboration.
So we would love Dale to come on board and endorse the, the Fair Game index and to really help us embed the green code within it. Um, and that's, that's where we're at. Dale hasn't quite gotten to that space yet, but you know,
Will: Well, if he cares about football, he probably will. Because it makes sense to actually work together as a football, you know, in unity.

Niall: Exactly. So, you know, Will or Charlie, if you've got a hotline to Dale and you want to kind of everybody else who's listening, [00:23:00] um, you know, certainly that, that, uh, that, uh, hand is certainly out there. Um, we'd really love to work with people that want to make football force for good and Dale's in that space.

Will: He is one of my heroes.

Charlie: And what about, what about changes that have been, so the governance thing I completely see. And I suspect you're, you're, you're, you're sort of. Strategy is that if we get the governance right, everything will flow from that the social and then hopefully we get to the environmental.
I mean, do we do we have a handle on the impacts of football environmentally? I mean, as as a pastime, do we understand quite how, uh, how much carbon is producing football attendances? What are we doing to try and challenge that and tackle that? Is that is that in the agenda at all yet?

Niall: Yeah, I mean, it's starting to, so we're seeing stuff about scope one and scope two, there's scope two and scope three, sorry, that's happening.
So there is kind of, uh, the right direction of travel that's going on. Um, but it's [00:24:00] just, we're really like a step one of a marathon. Um, so, you know, there is, there is the right noises being made. Um, we have got quite a number of environmental measures in the fair game index for that exact reason. And we see it as.
Um, twofold. I mean, one is. morally and environmentally sensible and responsible where football needs to go. And then, you know, the fact that we have a lot of teams that have been taking short haul flights, you know, going quite a while, I'm flying from Manchester to London, therefore I'll fly when there's a perfectly reasonable train service that can do it.
And it's probably quicker. Um, you know, those sorts of things shouldn't be happening. The kind of stuff where you look at. Whereas your, your local, uh, getting your food from a local, um, sources rather than shipping in from miles and miles away, there's loads of stuff like that that can be addressed and we're starting to see clubs beginning to think like that.
And this goes back to that kind of [00:25:00] whole incentive about, um, where you could get with, with the index. The other thing that we want to do with the fair game index is actually say to those organisations that are ethically minded to say, right, well, come and talk to us. We can tell you, we can match your values to the fair game index and tell you which clubs you should be looking to invest in, because it's, if we can get ethical investment within to football, then again, that's going to start seeing that culture change that I think we all need to see.
And, you know, we have that. We have that kind of now quite detailed analysis that will tell you who are the good clubs and who are the bad clubs. And it's that, again, it's that culture change that we need to really get over the line. Football is unfortunately run by an awful lot of people that are, you know, look a bit like me, which is kind of, you know, early 50s grey hair.
nearly white to be fair, um, uh, who, uh, kind of have come from a different kind of world [00:26:00] where there's kind of, there aren't that as engaged in, in the future as they, they have been. And we need to kind of break that and move towards a situation where people are thinking more responsibly. Not to say white 50 year old blokes don't think responsibly.
I'm just saying that, you know, that there's, there's a gen, there's a generation gap that still needs to be, you know, an education that still needs to happen.

Charlie: Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I'm interested. Could you, without sort of wishing to name and shame, could you give us an example of a club that Is that the very bottom of the index in a club that's at the very top and maybe give us a narrative as to, to, to what they're doing to, to be in those positions. Is that, is that something you're allowed to do? Is that a bit unfair? I don't, I don't really know.

Niall: I mean, whether it's unfair or not, I mean, um,

Will: that's what the index is about, isn't it? I mean, I think

Charlie: I hope so. Yeah.

Niall: Most of the clubs, the clubs towards the bottom are the ones that you would look at are financial risk takers. So if you were looking, you know, you wouldn't take you difficult [00:27:00] to pick up the back pages of a paper and go, right, well, no surprise in the clubs like Nottingham forest, who've overspent a lot on players wages. And there, I think we were looking at their reserves. Remembering your financial reserves are supposed to be in business sense is three to six months is kind of considered to be the right amount of financial reserves.

Will: Yeah,

Niall: when we our last analysis was not in forests, had something like five hours worth of reserves. Um, you know, so obviously not very sustainable. Um, On the flip side, clubs like Lincoln and Carlisle were doing very well because they score, they score really well on equality and diversity and environmental measures, where they're really taking that in a very proactive stance.
Um, and that's where you're seeing, and they are financially sustainable as well, because they're looking holistically at how to run a football club. And with that longer term view, so it's the people who think short term. Which will [00:28:00] are more likely to be the bottom and people who think longer term who are more likely to be at the top of the index.
And what we need to do is get more people to be thinking long term about that sustainability and their role they have in a community, um, than the short term gambler.

Will: We heard a while ago about Thornby FC, which is a club in Stockton on Tees, which axed the entire women's side because of financial problems. Is this what happens in clubs?

Niall: Yeah, exactly. So you're looking at when you've got, this is the whole left back scenario, right? I want to sign a left back and pay him a certain amount of money, right? But to do that, I've got to make cuts elsewhere. And the priority has become the left back over the women's team.
Uh, and, and until you have a situation where football says actually having a, you know, encouraging women's football, encouraging. Environmental thinking, encouraging things that run all those sort of support [00:29:00] groups that I talked about, then they're going to be cut. It's the easiest thing to cut on a short term basis.
You, um, you know, your backroom staff and you kind of support stuff. If you want to sign your third choice left back.

Will: And it goes back to what you said right at the beginning about how you look after the grass roots and you actually look after everything around you there. Then actually. You get the momentum all the way through, and I would hazard a guess there's a lot of women in Stockton On Tees that are a bit like, who cares about football, you know, because they go, they don't care about us.

Niall: Exactly. So in that situation, does that club become a hub of its community or does it not? Longer term?

Will: Yeah.

Niall: You know, you'll be going, right?

Will: Yeah.

Niall: You know, you'll be going there with. a bit disgruntled. It's the casual fan. It's the person who wants to have that connection. It's going to be like, well, you know, I'm put off.
I don't, I don't want to, I don't feel part of that, that community or that club.

Will: [00:30:00] Particularly as the demographic of the younger generation are looking at purpose driven business um, you know, when they're, when they're purchasing stuff, they are looking at B Corps, they're looking at purpose driven businesses. They're looking, they're actually thinking about what it is they're buying or procuring. So therefore they will be thinking about what they're watching at the same time. So this is a cultural change that will come through.

Niall: Yeah. I mean, the other thing to remember is that a lot of clubs live hand to mouth. So they're really, um, You know, they're really struggling just for their day to day existence and actually having the ability to think about all these things is actually really quite difficult for them. And I think this is the space that Fair Game has moved into is, you know, we see ourselves as that 12th player that the, um, the clubs haven't, you know, Got the time to do that.
We'll do the thinking, we'll do the analysis. They, um, Fair Game begins by club setting us saying, these are the problems in the game. How do you fix it? What do you do? And we, we take that problem and try and solve it and come out with [00:31:00] realistic solutions, which is where the index comes through from in the first place.
And it's that bit that, that we try and give that bit so they can strengthen and make the right choices. 'cause it, you know, if you are. Working 60, 70 hours a week, which a lot of the people who are in the smaller clubs are doing, and some of them on a volunteer basis, then, you know, thinking holistically about the benefits of the game is actually quite, you know, it's not top of their agenda.

Charlie: So are you also hoping or expecting that as you identify good actors within the space that you will be able to lead sponsors to align their agendas with good actors and to sort of, you know, create a virtuous circle in that element as well as having from a sort of a more sort of central control, uh, sort of area.

Niall: Yeah, absolutely. That's completely what we want to do. I'll go back to my example of AFC Wimbledon. My experience there is that what was that that adds so much more, um, to the [00:32:00] wider financial system on the AFC Wimbledon. We, there were numerous times we were looking to get. New loans into the club to help us build a new ground, a new stadium, pay off some of the debts and you'd go through the whole process.
And financially we're really secure. We had very good business model, most independent financial analysis was saying we were fine. And you get to the last question and be like, are you a football club? And you go, yes. Um, And that's because, and that's because the people who are investing in football right now are often your gamblers or your kind of people who are looking at that short termism.
So if you can start getting more ethical investment and football is seen as more of a safer and securer place than a place that's got ticks all those boxes that you're talking about, actually you can potentially get more investment into the game for, for the right reasons. And that's one of the things I think a lot of ethical companies would be like, why do I want to associate myself with football?
Because There are loads of other things that would be considered to be unethical that are happening within the game. Uh, and you [00:33:00] need to look at how you change that because there are plenty of people now that have got businesses with really strong, uh, CSR or ESG policies, could be looking at football, but be thinking of something else because of football's tainted reputation.
And until that changes, then it's going to be a struggle.

Charlie: And do you think, do you think the big clubs see that? Do you think they understand the potential to sort of open up to new funding streams, or is that counter to their sort of vested interests?

Niall: Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a mix of both, isn't it? So you will have clubs that will be, you know, number one in a lot of the big clubs is The financial, financial benefit of the big club, where they get their money from doesn't necessarily matter for most of the big clubs, you know, what they could see is if the direction of travel within football's investment was actually, if you start investing in the right things, then you're going to get more money.
Whether [00:34:00] it's through government legislation or whether it's through a growing ethical investment attitude globally, that's when they'll start doing it. They won't do it unless there's a financial benefit. And that's where you need to have somebody outside of the vested interests of the game to be making, directing those challenges, directing those kinds of conversations or pushing it, whether it's a wider.
Um, societal movement, which there is going on as we both touched on, or whether it's more direct government legislation with saying, these are the parameters you need to do.
That's what needs to happen to see those changes. They are very few of the top clubs are going to be.

Will: It's fascinating, isn't it? Because it's, although we're talking about football, we're not kind of could be talking about business full stop. And we could be thinking about other businesses with, you know, thinking about the same kind of things. And I, I'm now thinking about Salford, [00:35:00] um, football club and cause their owns, they've, they're quite unique with the fact they're owned by Ryan Giggs, David Beckham.
Um, and so. They've got a different, and how would they, how do they fit in with what they're doing, just out of curiosity, because they're, they are footballers inside that care obviously passionately about football.

Niall: So, yeah, no, the, the issue slightly with Salford is what would happen to Giggs and David Beckham got bored with Salford City?

Will: Well, this is my, I don't, I actually don't know because I don't know enough about it, but I, I can see from them outside that it's a unique kind of proposition that's going on there.

Niall: Yeah. So, I mean, it's similar with Wrexham, um, that if the people who are pumping money into those two clubs were to walk away, both of those clubs would be financially unsustainable tomorrow.

Will: Interesting.
Interesting. Okay.

Charlie: So, but you, you touched on something where you said, it's, it sounds to me like you're trying to [00:36:00] set up a kind of virtual circle that we're trying to set up in all businesses, you know, and all sports one assumes where you, you, you, you reward virtue, virtuous behavior. Do you have an example outside of football that you're, you're sort of.
you're looking to try and sort of bring the best learnings from. Because you know, in many ways, if you can solve this in football, man, that maybe we can solve it in loads of different areas and we're really onto something here.

Niall: I think, I think B Corp is a really interesting example. So, you know, what's your, what you've seen with B Corp is you've started to see businesses working together and sharing that kind of ethos and the kind of more ethical consumer going like, well, I'm going to choose a B Corp because I know what a B Corp means.
Um, and so, you know, there are one or two football clubs that are pursuing B Corp status. I mean, I have someone who went down that route, stalled a little bit cause there's an awful lot of paperwork to become a B Corp. Um, uh, Uh, another club that are going down that route. [00:37:00] So what you'd be looking at is that kind of like the virtuous circle in the virtuous group of going, well, actually, you know, the B Corp should be, if they were thinking about who they would want to invest and sponsor, then Fair Game as an organization with those kinds of clubs that have the very similar ethos.
So it's, are those, that group of people that can come together to try and actually support each other and develop things, because that The more powerful that group becomes, the more likely you are to see change in that wider area. So it's those bring those people together. That's where I think the power of a big, the B Corp movement is growing, right?
So the more kudos to that, the more you can see an overlap with groups like fair game or people that are back in the green code or, or whatever. And that's where you build that group in and that kind of momentum. Fair Game only exists because. Clubs that were thinking the same sort of way came together and actually started making a noise and we started influencing politicians and we were getting doors open because [00:38:00] all of those clubs were never getting any influence or very little influence when they were just on their own.

Charlie: Could we touch on fair, could we touch on Fair Game for a second? Because I don't, I don't know a great deal. I mean, who are you? When was it formed? Because it seems to me you're trying to take on an incredibly large business. There's an enormous amount of ambition in what you're trying to do.

Niall: Yes. So I'll go for the, the, the Fair Game story quickly.
So the Fair Game story is, um, you know, I am an AFC Wimbledon fan, we mentioned it, uh, and I've been on the boards. A couple of times. The second time we came onto the board, my manifesto was, well, what can AFC... For those who don't know what AFC Wimbledon was, AFC Wimbledon is a club that was created when, uh, the owners decided to move the club to 60 miles away.
And we said, no, we're not having that. We're going to set up our own club in our, in the community that we were still existing. So that's how AFC Wimbledon came about. Um, Then fast forward 20 years, I was going, well, what is, how can AFC Wimbledon and take our kind of community ethos and [00:39:00] use that influence the wider world of football?
I was also a previous sports journalist, so I spoke to loads of contacts within other boards and in football clubs and it came back and said the governance of football is broken and we need to look at how we're fixing it. And there are supporters groups already exist, but hadn't ever existed was the clubs coming together and saying, well, actually.
You know, we want to make a difference. We want to champion good governance and equality standards of community engagement and fan engagement in environmental measures and so on. Um, so I began to bring those clubs together and those clubs grew from being one club to three to five to 10 and now 34 men's professional football clubs who all of that same ethos, and they empower Fair Game as a, Entirely volunteer organization of now 80 people who go out and lobbying campaign and develop policies.
And what, how we operate is that we have the problems presented to us by the clubs and we work with universities to develop realistic solutions [00:40:00] to those problems, put position papers out to the kind of lobbying and all the rest of it. You do expect from a lobbying organization to try and change policy and try and change the way football operates.
And that's basically how, how our model works. Um, Uh, you know, and it's, it's run by a lot of passionate people who believe football can be a force for good.

Charlie: Fantastic. Wow. That's a story. So you're completely volunteer, you're a volunteer.

Niall: I am a volunteer. Yeah. Uh, we're, we are looking to move towards being, uh, a paid organization.
So there's a, there's a, obviously a fundraising element to what we're trying to do and, you know, working with those kind of moral clubs and speaking to kind of B Corps and so on that, that's where we really keen to get money in to help us become more. Ourselves more sustainable, you know, cause passion takes you a certain way and we wouldn't have 80 active volunteers and those are quite skilled volunteers.
So people who are, you know, political lobbyists in their day job or like, you know, national journalists [00:41:00] or, or whatever, or people who've been head of HR in kind of big organizations, all those sorts of people are all connected. So we're always interested in having talent come in and we're, our big thing is always about constant improvement.
So, but yeah. Yes, I'm a volunteer. Yes. I. I'm dedicated to it, but you know, I'm a passionate football fan who believes that we can do something quite amazing with our national game.

Charlie: Are all, I mean, 34, you mentioned 34 clubs, why isn't, why aren't all the clubs members? What do you think is a barrier to membership?
Why do you think this is not completely embraced by all of them?

Niall: I think there's two things. One of which is that there is an element of short termism. Uh, there's an element about actually there are people that overspend and are quite happy to be overspending, you know, that don't really quite like the gambling culture within football and want to do that.
And there is an element of clubs that live a little bit in the dark ages that still goes on, you know, and it also, A lot of [00:42:00] clubs just haven't got the brain space, the, the, the, you know, the, the, uh, capacity to think about all of these bigger issues because there's so much going on just to survive day to day.

Will: Of course. I mean, if you've got, if you've got five hours of, um, you know, time left, then you're absolutely only going to be thinking about the five hours left. You'll carry on doing what you're doing because you've always done it. And that makes complete sense. It'd be very hard to change that mentality as well.

Niall: Exactly that. So this is the whole bit about reward culture. So if you start rewarding football, uh, clubs to be better than that, my God, tomorrow you'll find them crafting out more than five hours a week or whatever to do that. Or, you know, that five hours will become like, well, here's how we can do that.
And this is what we need to be doing because it's actually financially beneficial. And I think over time, if we did that, then it would be become the norm, the practice, the normal practice to be, uh, kind of ethical and sustainable. Um, but you need to start somewhere. And you need [00:43:00] to get people thinking. in a different way.
And that's, that's the first hurdle. And that's where I think the kind of incentive approach is the key before you can get it institutionalized within our game.

Will: Funnily enough, I think I'm thinking of even just mental health. What you are proposing would be so much less stressful. I can, like, can you imagine being in a position where you are constantly having to make sure that you keep the lights on and it's a massive battle?
That's stressful. That's not, you know, that's not sustainable from a, from a, you know, wellbeing point of view.

Niall: I mean, I talk about my time on the board. So we spent a lot of time trying to make sure all those questions were addressed and dealt with. And then at the same time, you've got a team that's losing on the pitch.
So like you can be putting all that effort in and your fan base are going, right, well, you're responsible for actually, I wasn't responsible for picking the team, but people thought I was responsible for like picking the team. Um, and you get all that extra pressure as well. So, you know, [00:44:00] you're actually trying to do the right thing and yet your team could be losing and that you get grief for that.
So it's, it's, it is a very stressful place to be in, which is kind of where the advantage of being fair game is because we're kind of removed from the results element side of it that we can kind of help people concentrate on doing the right thing.

Charlie: When do you think the football governance bill will be passed? When are we actually going to see these, these wonderful ambition, um,

Niall: So it really depends on whether it makes the King's Speech or not in the first session, because it was very close. It failed when the general election was called, so it had already begun the committee stages, so literally it was probably about two weeks away from, two or three weeks away from making legislation.
That's how close we were. It wasn't perfect and we would have definitely wanted amendments to it. What we're hoping is that, uh, in the King's Speech that it's included, it's included. And if it is included that it isn't the previous version, but it's an improved iteration of that [00:45:00] version. And if that happens, then we could technically seeing a governance bill, a past, you know, end of this year, even, and that would be a really good.
I mean, there is already a shadow regulator operating. There is a, a department that's operating within civil service days, looking at all of these things. There are roles that have been hired. Um, But it needs to have that little bit extra to kind of go there and that's about making sure it's in that King's Speech.
It is, you know, we lobbied really hard and it was in, you know, it was in the Labour, the Tory and the Lib Dem manifestos. So, you know, for having it in. So there is a commitment. We just need to make sure that commitment comes soon.

Charlie: I have to say there is something, uh, refreshing and Energizing about the ambition, you know, of what you're doing and the fact that 80 volunteers are taking on a multi billion pound industry and that you feel that empowered enough and confident enough that you're actually going to make a [00:46:00] difference.
And I think for that, you know, enormous respect for all of you putting the time in and doing the hard work. It's really inspiring. Absolutely.

Niall: Thank you very much, Charlie. I mean, you know, that's, that's, you know, I think my, my mantra is, you know, we are here to try and make the world a better place. If this is a little step that I can do, then it, it's great.
And, uh, you know, there's, there's nothing more motivating for me than taking on a couple of multi-billionaires.

Will: I think you're in the right time, right place. I mean, look at the Better Business Act. It's a similar type than what you are doing. So you've got things going through Parliament now that is all about this.
So. I, you know, this is going to happen. This is going to succeed, isn't it?

Niall: Well, our fingers massively crossed. It takes the political will for it to happen and for the politicians to be brave enough to take on those multi billionaires and go, right, you know, let's do something that's good for all those communities where all those clubs are.

Charlie: And I think what's fantastic about the index is that it's putting it in black and white. It's giving it data points and, you know, data points. Are very clear, [00:47:00] you know, and they're very hard to argue against and I think increasingly with all of these issues, it is data that is going to drive these changes.
And so the fact that you know, you're focusing on that you're getting this stuff out in the daylight. I think it makes it very hard to ignore. So carry on and hopefully you will revolutionize. football to become the driving force of good in the heart of communities across the country. Well, thank you very much, Niall.
And that's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved. Next month, we're going to be talking about the supply chain and a new kind of trackable palette. Make sure you hit follow in your app so you get notified as soon as that episode drops.

Will: And for questions and more information on sponsorship opportunities, email podcast@SustainabilitySolved.Org and if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please do leave us a review in the podcast app. It is really, really appreciated. Thanks for listening. I'm Charlie Luxton.

And I'm Will [00:48:00] Richardson.