Season 5, Episode 186 : Exploring Careers in Sustainability

Will: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Sustainability Solved, the sustainable business podcast. I'm Will Richardson, the founder and CEO of the Green Element Group, incorporating Green Element, Compare Your Footprint, and of course, Sustainability Solved. We've been empowering organizations to manage their environmental impacts for a just and sustainable world since 2004.
Charlie: And I'm Charlie Luxton, an architectural designer who focuses on sustainable buildings. In this episode, we're looking at careers in sustainability. Whether you've never worked in any other field or you are looking to make the leap from an entirely different industry, there'll be something for you. Roles focused on sustainability and environmentally friendly activities now make up a third of job postings in the UK, according to social network LinkedIn.
And today we're talking to a man who deals [00:01:00] exclusively with green recruitment. Serrol Osman is director of Verdant Search. Welcome to the podcast, Serrol.
Serrol: Thank you for having me.
Charlie: It's a pleasure. So it's a whole world, isn't it? I mean, it's a massively growing world. And I imagine in the world of sustainability recruitment, it's, it's pretty busy.
Are you seeing any sectors in particularly, uh, that are making more hires in sustainability?
Serrol: Um, yes, before I jump into that, uh, my specialist focus, um, at Verdon is very much around the corporate sustainability and ESG. It is quite a confusing landscape at the moment, so I don't cover the deeper environmental aspects of recruitment.
So that's kind of your environmental impact assessment side or the deeper scientific piece. I have some knowledge and I'll talk about. The areas where I can cover that off, but sector wise and the market as a whole, it was really, I think everyone saw, and you guys would have experienced in quite a lot of detail.
It was really booming, uh, kind of up until, uh, the end of 2022. Since then, actually, it's been a lot quieter. [00:02:00] So particularly on the corporate side, um, the global geopolitical Issues have driven economic issues. And actually we saw a lot of sustainability momentum taken out of the market with regard to hiring.
So what's that look like? That's meant CFOs haven't signed off on a lot of projects. We've seen things stop and start. Uh, candidates in the market have found it quite hard to move. Uh, there's been very little movement at the senior end and we've actually seen some consultancies having to restructure.
how they're looking to deliver what they're looking to hire in. And we've actually seen some consultancies having to restructure how they're looking to deliver, um, what they're looking to hire in. Um, sectors wise, I could run into, but I didn't know if you wanted to dig into any of that. Yeah, just
Will: on that.
I wonder if that is to do with, we've seen a real shift in, um, salaries last year and we've had to equalize our salaries as a consultancy, bringing them up. And there's a lot of tumultuousness, tumultuousness, [00:03:00] what's going on in the industry at the moment. Tumult. Tumult. That doesn't sound right. That just doesn't sound right.
Charlie: Tumult.
Serrol: Tumult or not tumult.
Will: And so therefore it does that play into it. Also clients aren't willing to pay for what the salaries are trying to get to as well. So you've got this going on at the same time and then you add in your fees into it. It kind of makes it quite hard to use you.
Serrol: So what's, yeah, so there's, there's, there's two parts of the, the market, right? There's the people that have been delivering such as yourselves, sustainability and environmental support and consultancy for a number of years. You've got your thesis and your South poles, right? Uh, and the other consultants have been around and historically the salaries have been what they've.
Right. Uh, and reflective of the market with the sudden, um, regulatory intake that finally the world's waking up, you know, and trying to, on a larger scale, make change. And I think most [00:04:00] people are accepting where we need to be going. So we're seeing a lot more movement now that's obviously woken up some of the corporate beasts to thinking that there's a money to be made in this area, but also that they need to get involved for actually going to have enough staff and skills.
People on the market to deliver change. So the problem you've had there is the PWCs, the EYs, the Deloittes, the KPMGs of the world, the Accentures have suddenly started to say, Hey, we're going to invest billions of pounds. We're going to build huge teams. So they then gone into the market and decided to hire everyone from the companies that already exist.
Alongside that, um, a lot of companies have decided they need stuff to suddenly take their senior leadership roles. So anyone that's already been in the market has suddenly found themselves offered quite a lot of money to move. What's that done? It's had a kind of almost a threefold effect. First off, um, everyone in this, in the senior roles has been sucked up, right? Uh, and, uh, you know, the FTSE 100 and 250 have all got generally [00:05:00] fairly good sustainability leadership in there, but they're offering them quite large salaries. Then the next level of hiring has taken everyone out of middle management. So there's very few people with kind of four, five years sustainability experience that's left.
They've all been sucked up into the senior roles. So what we've got there is a depth or a lack of depth of hiring potential pool or some people now call it a candle puddle. And then you've got lots of people wanting to come into industry, which is great. There's loads of grads coming through. There's lots of people wanting to pivot, but they don't have that level of experience to fill those roles.
The effect that's had though, on those existing consultancies that have been doing all this great work for so long is that, um, they, uh, have had to change their salary structures. Right. If they're going to attract staff or compete to a certain extent, which has been painful and it's very hard thing to do because you have to change your business model and your pricing and everything else.
And then existing clients have found that hard. So the market's going through a huge amount of change. I mean, it is really quite fractured at the moment. [00:06:00] And that comes through in a number of levels. So, um, job descriptions are all over the place. Because everything's changing, it's all evolving. I mean, you could call one job five things, but every job description you look at is asking for something slightly different.
So actually for a candidate looking for work, it's very confusing at the moment. For people looking to hire for the first time, it's very confusing. Salaries are all over the shop. There's no consistency anywhere. And, um, yeah, it does mean that companies are confused. Uh, candidates find it really hard to find work.
So that natural kind of, uh, in a more mature evolved market, um, uh, and, and one that's, I mean, sustainability is evolving so fast at the moment and there's new roles coming up almost monthly to a certain extent. Um, and people changing and calling everything, anything. I mean, you were talking obviously to, uh, who's Andrew Griffith I think from the carbon alliance...
Will: Yeah.
Serrol: Uh, and, and, uh, I was, uh, obviously doing a bit of research and listening to that. And I found that podcast really interesting, but I mean, and he was reflecting a lot [00:07:00] of the pain points I have, where he was talking about how carbon neutral and net zero. you know, people get confused.
You know, there's no terminology. There's no common ground at the moment where this means this to a lot of people. Um, there is in the certain channels, but yeah,
Will: I would say that comes from inexperienced people in leadership positions. Yeah. A lot of that confusion,
Charlie: but equally a very fast evolving market, because I mean the whole, you know, the whole conversation was him.It's basically about regularizing a whole new area.
Serrol: Yeah.
Charlie: You know, almost from nothing. So a, how do you even advertise that job? How does the company even know what that job looks like? And you know that it is very hard to find the right fit.
Serrol: It's really confusing. Yeah. And it's really hard. Yeah. Um, and a lot of the time they're not going to the right people to get the right advice.
Um, uh, people don't always use specialists. They like to lean on the current suppliers and everyone likes to do sustainability. Right. Cause it seems attractive. So you've got everyone trying to get into sustainability. So you've got finance recruiters and everyone [00:08:00] else, and they've all coming up with all kinds of weird ideas about how to do things.
Whereas there there's obviously agencies that have been in the market a little bit longer that actually have a better understanding and know where the candidates are and what they look like. So it all gets quite confused on a number of levels. The great thing is there's so many people wanting to make a difference.
Right. Um, there's a lot of people pouring into the sector, but at the moment it's creating a lot of confusion. I've not ever spoken to one career sustainability candidate that's not wanted a job that's impactful. Right. Uh, which I think is very important for anyone looking to hire because you do still speak to some candidates to get horror stories where they've joined somewhere and now you're just here to come up with a strategy and then not do anything type behavior or don't talk to anyone about sustainability.
You do hear still sadly some horror stories every so often, but they are diminishing. But candidates want to be working in purpose led companies, and that's not just sustainability nowadays. That's your whole team. Yeah, there's so many people within, uh, I think the general, uh, you know, population that want to work for companies that they feel are actually making a difference, both on [00:09:00] social sustainability and, you know, your environmental climate change.
And so, actually, if you get that right, for your company, then it's a great tool, you know, so, uh, you know, it helps retain your staff, motivate your staff. It helps with candidate attraction. And if you can't keep your staff, you can't grow a company fund.
Charlie: Can I flip back to two things? One, you mentioned this idea that, that ultimately the sort of turbocharging of the whole industry is sort of creating. I mean, if I got this right, almost like a truck and trailer that people that are established are just being sucked up the food chain, if you like. And then everyone coming in is very, very early in their careers. And it's, it's actually quite difficult to bridge those.
Serrol: There's a chasm at the moment in, in the experience level, right?
So hiring anyone in mid middle management's very hard. Yeah. Um, it, you know, it takes longer to find talent with kind of five to eight years experience that are actually going to fit into that level.
Will: We're seeing exactly that at the moment.
Serrol: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's been this way for a little while.
There's lots of people coming in and there's some [00:10:00] great people wanting to pivot into the market. And I think the key thing is actually understanding what sustainability means, right? So from a corporate sustainability viewpoint, you're going to put a sustainability strategy into place, but a sustainability strategy to work successfully has to work hand in hand with a commercial strategy, right?
They can't be at loggerheads with each other and to do, and then to actually, what that means is you need people with commercial acumen to deliver it as well as sustainability knowledge. And so you need a lot of the soft skills of the people that are trying to get into the industry. It's just getting them up skilled.
So, you know, you need to have great stakeholder management. You need to work well with others. You need to be able to engage with the other departments, understand the commercial pressures they're under to put a sustainability strategy through a business. Cause it's fundamentally a business change to transformation project.
That's going to last three to five years or longer, depending on the complexity of your business. And you've got to bring the rest of the business with you. You've got to work on, um, well, sustainability means. [00:11:00] something to everybody, but it doesn't always mean what it's going to mean when it comes to deliver it to their department, if they're heading up their department.
Right. So you need to work on that internal communication, but if you get it right, you know, you get an engaged employee workforce, um, you get better retention. It helps the staff attraction and, you know, sustainability does equal profitability. It's got some upfront costs, but I think it's, you know, most people.
people. I don't think I've ever really spoken to any sustainability leadership. They don't think a sustainable business will be a more profitable business with regard to circular economy. And there's a lot to go around, but it's definitely the road we're on. It's just going to be a long road.
Will: I know some companies that have actually done a U turn and rather it's such a strange thing to do.Um,
Serrol: really?
Will: And you just go, wow.
Charlie: So what gone from, from embracing sustainability and said, no, we're not going down that road anymore.
Will: Yeah. This is not the right route. We should be doing, we should be. Yeah. I. Anyway, that's, it's a choice.
Serrol: Yeah. So this, it totally reminds [00:12:00] me cause I, um, was doing digital recruitment. So I started off in tech recruitment, actually started off doing all kinds of things and probably fell into recruitment as people do, uh, about 20 years ago. And I started off as a tech recruiter and then that evolved into digital recruitment. And so the whole digital transformation piece, right. And, um, you know, you've got your companies that will be like a blockbusters.
Right. And you've got the other ones that are going to love film them or what is now Netflix, right? You know, some people just didn't believe the internet was going to happen, right? I think they will get left behind. The people don't believe sustainability is going to happen. There is value in putting it into place.
The longer you leave it behind, the bigger the cost and the risk levels to your business on all kinds of elements of physical transitional, everything.
Will: We have a law firm on our books that if the company that they're going to work for doesn't have a sustainability strategy in place. We'll not work for them.
And the reason is, is because of the risk. And because they're talking millions and millions of pounds for a contract, they see them as a partner for the next five years [00:13:00] plus, and if they don't have a sustainability strategy, there's a huge risk involved with that company being around.
Serrol: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, any international business isn't going to be able to trade because everyone's all the regulatory pressure that's coming through.
You have to deliver it. Hopefully there's going to be enough substance to the auditing of this rather than people just saying, Hey, we've got a policy.
Charlie: No, it's just, it's just interesting to go back to this, this idea of the kind of the nature of the recruitment business being in this quite unusual situation of, of sort of almost truck and trailer or however you want to phrase it. Is that something you recognize in the digital transformation? So do you have a sense of how this. This recruitment profile is going to shift over time.
Serrol: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, um, so with digital, it came along and never, no one quite knew what to do with it, where to put everybody. You've got all these new skills coming out like PPC and SEO and, you know, different types of front end developers and everything around it.
Right. And we're seeing exactly the same story now with sustainability and ESG and environmental pressures. What happens [00:14:00] then is that they basically said, Oh, we don't want to do, we'll create a digital team. Right. And they put digital departments and, you know, digital is a bit easier with regard to, you know, watch channels to put it into really it goes into tech or into marketing, right?
The problem is with sustainability from a leadership viewpoint is, and I have this on a daily basis, who does sustainability report into in a business? And if you're hiring as a sustainability leader, they often can be very put off if it's reporting into marketing or comms, right? Because that's an uncomfortable relationship.
With regard to marketing, I talked to lots of lots of great marketing people actually wrote a blog about this last year, and, um, they find it uncomfortable because obviously they're there to grow the business. Yeah. So how does that sit with sustainability and, you know, the greenwashing conversation, but sustainability leaders don't want to necessarily go into HR.
If you're trying to drive business change, why would you be reporting to legal? So they can put them into the, these really funny channels. Fundamentally, you need to report into the C suite and it needs to be the CEO, [00:15:00] CFO, COO type, you know, but a caveat that every business is slightly different and you want a stakeholder that's very passionate.
Can actually, you know, support you at that level and drive through change within the business. So sometimes that person can be the mark marketing. You know, director or the CMO, it is slightly different. So the other piece around that is that with digital, um, you built these whole teams, but that skillset now has gone back into the more traditional departments.
So SEO and PPC all now sits in marketing. Right. Where it was natural bedfellow, you've seen a lot of that tech roles sit within the it department or the technology department or whatever they wish to call themselves. Right. Um, you know, you've seen a lot of those skill sets move back into the traditional departments.
And I really think ESG and sustainability is going to do that to a certain extent. Right. Uh, if you look at reporting, I mean, it naturally sits in non financial disclosures, right? So it's going to go into the finance team. The compliance guys are going to pick up quite a lot along those lines. We're [00:16:00] already seeing, um, supply chain and procurement starting to work, you know, with regard to ethical sourcing and that will upskill.
It's an upskilling of the traditional workflows and utilizing those softer skills. So we will see this evolution, but I think when you're looking to drive change through the business, you need a separate department and there's no doubt there will be sustainability managers. And leadership and the softer skills, the more, uh, of the automated stuff.
Um, again, that leads into AI, but you know, that's a future future piece, uh, that is going to have an impact and a productive one, but does that answer your question, John?
Charlie: Yeah, no, it does. I think it's really interesting. So this idea that to begin with, you need the sustainability group to sit sort of above as an umbrella and eventually that will break up and absorb down into the traditional streams of a business makes sort of sense and one assumes therefore that the people coming up through the company will effectively absorb those roles as well as they grow.
Serrol: Well, I mean, that's what I would, I would foresee at the moment following a similar path to digital. Right. [00:17:00] And, uh, you know, there's still digital teams within businesses, right.
There's still sustainability specialist consultancies there. So providing this support, or, you know, you've got creative digital and marketing agencies that are offering outsourced bespoke solutions into those areas. But I think generally you're going to see an upskilling of a lot of staff. within businesses, um, with regard to their knowledge around sustainability and how that fits into some of the core roles.
Not everyone, absolutely. You're going to need, you know, sustainability leaders and or ESG leaders. Again, we can get into a whole conversation about job titles. Um, but you know, those people divide driving strategy, making sure it fits through into the business. But just like you've seen on board at sea level at the moment, at suites, across all the major boards, they have a lot more technology focused knowledge across the C suite.
Sustainability is going to go the same way. It has to.
Will: It's so funny listening to you. When I first started doing this back in the early 2000s, I genuinely thought that I wouldn't have a job by 2020 because [00:18:00] of what you said. Yeah. So now I'm kind of like, well, hopefully you're right. And maybe I won't have a job in 2030 or 2040.
Charlie: The other question, um, cause Will, you talked about a couple of companies. backsliding on, you know, that you, you've seen. And I wondered how much of an impact the current government's slightly hazy relationship to the sustainability of agenda, if I'm putting it in the nicest sort of non political terms I possibly can, um, is actually having on, on recruit, you know, is it in big business that they're going, Oh, wait a second. Maybe we don't. don't have to do this or are they, are they, are they ignoring the government effectively and carrying on?
Serrol: You happy for me to pick that one up, Will?
Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Serrol: Yeah. I mean, so, um, looking at, um, yes, I mean, there's no doubt that all the political parties backtracking on their policies does not fool anyone with momentum, right?
Uh, or we need to do this, but also it has an impact on the economy because people that are planning, I mean, you work in the built environment, right, Charlie? So, you know, you [00:19:00] see all these people getting ready for enhanced biodiversity or, you know, boilers or absolutely everything that level, and then they just move the goalposts.
Well, they cost the economy on that. It's huge, right? It also, it makes it very hard. And I think this is one thing where the government and leadership really don't think is it's investment. You know, are you going to invest into a changeable environment or do you want confidence that this is happening?
This is an investable economy. I can put loads of money into this knowing that they're going to back this and go forward with it. And I think that really affects actual growth. You know, you need money coming in from abroad. We want to look like we've got a really strong green economy. And when, you know, Boris for all his, um, all his woes, you know, he was at least banging that bell, right?
He wanted us to be a leading green economy. Uh, and yes, COVID's led to pressures, but we all know where it's going, right? So, you know, why not just commit to it? And there's a balance to be found, but, um, it's disappointing. Uh, and it definitely has an impact.
Charlie: You mentioned AI coming from, from. [00:20:00] IT and seeing the role that that is having in sort of digital, the digital world.
I mean, it's still pretty early days, but it's fascinating. How do you see that affecting green jobs going forward and how are you sort of framing that in your future scenarios?
Serrol: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, um, It's hard to know, right? Because it's, I mean, we're talking about things evolving quickly, you know, we might all be, depending if we use it responsibly or not, you know, working for AI soon, but we'll see, but looking at recruitment and jobs, I mean, PwC had an interesting report where they were talking about AI and the future of sustain, the future of sustainable pieces.
And they thought it was going to generate quite a lot of jobs, but it is going to affect certain sectors. There's no doubt, right? The idea is that AI will come in and make sectors more productive. And a more productive economy is a growing economy and a growing economy, economy creates jobs, right? So from that logic, then it should be beneficial.
It is going to affect areas like energy, transport, [00:21:00] agriculture, right? Because they can just run more efficiently. Um, the jobs that I, I think everyone talks around AI is the softer skills, you know, the more human. Aspects are going to become more and more necessary. I mean, you're seeing it affects technology because it's taking out those developers and testers at the moment because it can do that job quicker and more efficiently and at a wider scale.
But you're still going to need architects, right? You're still going to need project managers. You're still going to need designers. And so one thing I was thinking on regard to this when I have time to think with the young family is that what does this look like? What does circular economy look like at the future?
And I think a lot of it's going to come into design. You see a lot of, you know, in the built environment around LCA and a whole life carbon, uh, and pieces like that, you know, there's going to be needs to be a lot of product and design and that kind of creative area, I think it's going to take off. So when you talk about, again, people wanting to pivot into sustainability, there's so many soft skills of people that are already Indian that are working, right?
[00:22:00] Um, that can be utilized. It's just finding the right channels for those. We're going to have a whole range of jobs coming out, uh, things that, you know, you can't foresee, but you know, there's jobs in front and everything from sales at the moment to marketing and comms, you know, even investor relations is having that element, you know, these things more into research.
There's a lot of research roles, particularly around the financial services sector, but those will grow out. There's a lot around policy, obviously consultancy. There's a lot of bits coming through. There's a lot of auditing work that's going to have to be done. Now, will AI be able to replace that? Or will that need a human element?
Who knows how far it's going to go. And actually, like all humans with technology, you know, we get overexcited and then, you know, and when's the last time you had a good experience with a chatbot, right?
Will: The, um, you. You alluded to people coming in to the industry from other sectors. And I would say maybe about 15 years ago, I started to see more of my either professional friends or friends actually asking me advice and saying, look, I'm disillusioned with finance.
I'm [00:23:00] disillusioned with this, um, industry. I'd like to move more into sustainability because of X reasons. And they were like, but do you think I should. And my answer to them was always, of course, because at that time we needed to be professionalized. The industry that I was working was incredibly unprofessional people, like the type of people that were working.
There were very passionate sustainability experts, but there was a lack of professionality within the industry. And I think that has massively changed over the years because of the external people coming in. So I see it as a real benefits. What advice would you give to anyone listening that wanted to get into sustainability from another sector?
Serrol: Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few things that I talked to. And I mean, it is wonderful to see so many people wanted to get involved, right? I mean, just my own story. I actually did environmental management at the end of last year. Um, [00:24:00] but at the time, you know, I couldn't, I didn't think I could get into the sector enough to make enough money.
I fell into working in finance, uh, in, in the city and a few other things. And, you know, I got to a point where actually to see, cause I, you know, just gave up a bit on humanity maybe, but to see the actual focus on, um, real change, you know, actually, we actually, something's really going to start happening on a wider scale.
And I think a lot of people have. Actually followed that through, right? You know, a lot of people suffer from wanting to have an effect, but don't know what to do. So there's dark green and light green jobs they talk about. And so I sat and thought, what can I do? How can I use my current skillset? And so sustainable jobs was actually, wasn't necessarily, I wanted to think I could do something else, but it was the quickest way I felt I could help and I have an impact as minor as it may be.
And that would be very light green. Right. Um, probably kind of pale light green, right? Um, so you've got your light green jobs as well, and then your dark green. So dark green might be [00:25:00] an environmental impact assessor, right? That really get involved in there or a sustainability director. Then you've got your lighter green jobs, which is still having an impact that might be around to kind of, I don't know, marketing, for example, or sales, right?
For people wanting to move over, Look at your current skill set and see what you can use, right? Cause you've got some great skills in there. And as the market evolves, they will be needed and sustainability has to work with commerciality. And those skills are going to be useful in driving the green economy.
So other things to look at. And so there's probably three key areas, your current company. education and voluntary. So when I say to anyone looking through, and I apologize in advance for the, I literally have hundreds of people contact me on a weekly basis wanting this information, and I just can't get back to everyone.
Otherwise I would have a different job. Yeah.
Will: Yeah.
Serrol: It doesn't surprise me. So when I do have a chance and I try to help who I can, uh, or give guidance, um, is the first place to look actually is your current employer. Because every company's thinking about this at the [00:26:00] moment, and a lot of companies actually haven't done that much.
But even if they've just starting on their journey, or if they haven't done anything, or even they're a bit more evolved, volunteer to get involved in it, right? So whether that's helping with understanding what reporting they need to do, getting on an internal committee, a bit of governance, right? It means you can gain actual commercial real life experience, which is very valuable.
In the current company, and you can start to work out the areas that you might be interested in and get a better picture of it. So I know a lot of people that have gone that channel and it's worked very well. Your company will welcome any help, right? And normally you would have to be voluntary, but again, I've seen people that have taken that through as a company's actually started to value the work that you're doing, realizing the regulatory pressures that coming, even if you're not a big company, you're still going to be in the supply chain of a big company.
And therefore they're going to want to see this. starting to happen, right? With regard to compliance. So, and then that's evolved into a 50, 50 job. And in some cases you've actually gone through that area. Also, if you go to your corporate channel, your current [00:27:00] company, they might actually pay for you to do some training, which is a win win, right?
Uh, and upscaling. If you are looking to go training, obviously the Cambridge courses, the CISL and Oxford's got one as well. Oxford UCL, they're all starting to come out. The ones I see most are the Cambridge ones. Um, but yes, there are other providers out there.
Will: The only reason why I mentioned the Oxford one is because I've got a few clients that have actually chosen that over the CRS Cambridge one.
I've got friends who teach on actually more the Cambridge one to be honest with you, but the Oxford one's got, it's getting, it's getting traction. It's interesting. Yeah. It's really interesting.
Serrol: Yeah. I mean, I I'm just outside Oxford, so I, you know, which blue to support, but, um, yeah, just on the, on the market.
Um, the one, uh, that I talked to candidates through, they've gone through, they actually find it really useful from a networking viewpoint. That's one of the key things that come out. The other people that meet on the courses, but with anything with regard to education, I would just say, you might see something you think looks really interesting, but please start broad.
And then narrow as you work out what you want. So do something [00:28:00] broader around sustainability, business leadership, or, you know, don't go straight into a circular economy. It's a big growing sector, work out where you think you want to be. And then narrow. And that's the same with education. Don't go straight in unless you just know your whole life, all you want to do is work in circular economy, because it can get too niche.
And it's not as transferable as skill, if that makes sense. And the other bit is a voluntary, uh, there's a lot of voluntary charity, not for profits, um, that are looking, uh, if you're stuck in the big city, sometimes they're harder with regard to the environmental piece. You have to sometimes go out cause that's where the green fields are.
So to speak, but there is a lot of opportunity there to leverage your skills. I mean, one example is I used to do a lot of work when I used to have a digital marketing comms agency, uh, with a company called Pimp My Cause, uh, What they do is they take, um, specialists. They're very focused around marketing and comms, but there'll be other type providers and they take people that work in the sector and pair them up with charities that need work.
And so you can utilize or [00:29:00] get real life commercial experience, actually doing some good and work out for something you want to do. You don't get paid for it. You're doing good, obviously. But, um, yeah, so there's those kinds of channels. The education side is fine. Obviously, if you can do a master's, uh, have time to a master's, that's great, but I would say work your way up to it.
Don't go straight in, just make sure what you want to be doing first. And the best place is talk to your current employer.
Charlie: And where, where are you seeing the majority of the kind of candidates coming from? Because traditionally, a lot of the people I with seem to come out of the energy sectors. And I wondered if that's still, you know, if that's might've broken out as the, as, as the kind of complexity of the ecosystems growing.
Serrol: Yeah. I mean, I would say people are coming from everywhere now, absolutely everywhere. I have calls from people with all kinds of backgrounds wanting to get involved from people that work in fundraising and sales, people that have, uh, got disheartened doing just about any type of. Commercial professional services roles, but that's just the world in which I live in.
Right. And so that's the channels I tend to have people coming through on. Um, there's so many [00:30:00] grads coming to the market at the moment. It's wonderful. Hopefully though the market will, I mean, at the lower end, um, there is opportunities and people are hiring. I just want to make sure we get the momentum going.
I'm hopeful now the inflationary pressures have dropped second half of this year. By the time it's run through the economy, I'm predicting to most people that we'll see things start to pick up and get busier again.
Will: I think it already is listening to my peers and looking at us.
Charlie: Yeah, I've seen signs. Do you find that the people moving into this sector are also looking for slightly different work life balance or, or different ways of engaging with jobs?
You know, more modern jobs, four days a week, flexible time. Oh,
Serrol: that's, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say that's, um, anything to do with people moving into the sector. I'd say that is, The economy now in the sector, more specifically focused around that. No, not at all. Not at all. You know, hybrid working is here to stay.
I think if you're an employer that's not offering it, you're going to really narrow your candidate pool and your talent acquisition potential. And therefore people just won't do it. There's certain obviously [00:31:00] jobs you have to be in, right? But at the moment, the average is in the office three days a week work from home for two.
People like flexibility. People like to be treated like adults. There's a caveat to that. You actually have to earn trust. Um, which I would say to some of the, some of the candidates out there, don't go in at day one, demanding everything, you know, put in a hard shift show that, you know, where you can get to, and then, you know, have those conversations.
But most employers at the moment are offering a lot of flexibility. People still like to go in the office, right? Being a hundred percent remote. I have a few employers that do that. do that. Um, it's, it's hard. I think you can be lonely, but also for career development, you want to be around your peers or your seniors.
You learn a lot just from being around people. Um, so sustainability wise, ESG wise, because we're into every single sector, I'm totally agnostic, right? So anyone not offering hybrid working, it will make hiring Difficult.
Charlie: But what about the wider value sets of sort of like mission led professionals, like people expecting time off to do charitable work or pro bono work?
I mean, is that something that you see higher in the sector [00:32:00] than your previous experience in digital?
Serrol: No, no, I wouldn't say so. I would say people wanting to do, uh, companies want to be part of delivering sustainability is social impact and social value, right? So that's. Part of actually your sustainability development piece.
Um, and why not get your employees involved in what you're doing again, a more motivated workforce or a happier workforce is a more productive one. Um, and so you're going to do better as a business. Uh, I haven't, I haven't seen any conflicts around that, but I would say, you know, if you want your business to be growing, get your staff involved.
Companies do a lot. Already, not all companies tend to offer voluntary days out, uh, and things, but I think a lot of companies do tend to do some form of impact, um, and, and outreach, uh, to the local community. And, um, if your staff want to get involved in that, that's a wonderful thing to do, it helps build team bonding.
Will: Leading on from that, we, um, do, you work for a charity of your choice one day a month. We have a nine day fortnights and there's loads of other things. I mean, we are B Corp [00:33:00] as well. And. I just wonder how much softer stuff that a company can have in, because it obviously costs money. That's, I mean, we, we'd be remiss, but
Serrol: it depends what element you use.
I mean, you're obviously at the end where you're doing a lot, right? But
Will: then I'm looking at salaries and going, actually, I want, and I'm asking your. like experience, which like, where do you draw the line? Do you pay people more and give less?
Serrol: Well, the thing is everybody's different, right? And that works across, um, you know, the, the, the workforce.
So different people are going to want different things. Uh, and you will find Candidates for everything. However, too far in one direction, you do start to limit and there's the company cultural value. You know, not everyone's going to want to go and do a voluntary day every month. They might want to be in the office getting top of their work so they can relax at the weekend, right?
Or they would rather a little bit more money because they've got more financial [00:34:00] pressures and mortgages and kids to pay for or education and anything along those lines. So it's, um, it's, it's important. I think for businesses, absolutely to have a social value aspect, um, for candidates, different people will look for different things.
Um, and that doesn't reflect on the talent that they have. It reflects more on their personal drivers.
Charlie: So we know talking, talking about talent and the talent pool, we know that From a recent article in the Financial Times, UK is adding green jobs faster than many other countries. So how, how is that working?
I mean, do we have enough of a green skills pool or, you know, how are we expecting to meet this? Well, one assumes increasing demand.
Serrol: Yeah. Um, so I, I, I'm always a little bit wary of this. These statistical things when they come out, right? Um, so I, I don't put too much weight on them, but there is no doubt that we need to have a lot of green skilled jobs and people in the market.
AI is obviously going to automate a lot of this, so it will take some pressures off. And the sectors, the ones I [00:35:00] don't know as well, so I don't do a lot within engineering and obviously on the environmental side, you're going to need engineers, but from the design viewpoint, the energy sector is one of those that's expected to see job losses as a result of AI.
because of improvements in production and productivity processing. Um, when you look at, uh, people coming through, there's so many people want to come into the sector at the moment. I've got no doubt. Actually, I would rather there was more demand for the, for the candidates right now. But, uh, I wouldn't say we need to be looking from abroad for the commercial side.
a tool for sustainability or ESG. I don't think there's a skill gap there at the moment. There will need to be a lot of upskilling as people change and the market evolves and we see new roles coming through. Uh, and the government needs to make sure they're providing for that. Um, but I wouldn't say there's a shortage at the moment.
And, um, I would say there's definitely, there's a lot of people wanting to get involved in the sector, which is great to see. We will need, uh, companies, I think when you're looking to hire. And a market like this. And I [00:36:00] think this is one of the really crucial points. They need to be open minded. They need to be able to take people.
You can upskill people. You can't change the character. Yeah. So hard people based on passion, right. And who they are and they've got the soft skills. Uh, and those people can be upskilled quite quickly. And you can bring in contractors. It's another aspect I have with the market at the moment. That's not evolved enough.
There's not enough interim or contract work. Um, and people aren't utilizing those channels and upskill your staff, you know, they can put them on courses. There's enough good people out there at the moment to get into the jobs in the market, like it is at the moment. If you're a Canada. The one thing I'm saying to candidates at the moment is because it's so fractured and people are calling things everything.
Uh, and the particular companies that are new coming into hiring, they don't really know what they're looking for. Uh, and so I spend a lot of my time working with people to try and influence them throughout the process. They slowly realize what this means that they're trying to hire with regard to a sustainability manager, right?
You can't have them doing five different jobs. Those are actually [00:37:00] five different jobs, right? And you might need different people or you might need consultancy, but. You know, they go on a bit of journey. They discover what the market looks like. They realize actually for some companies that this is a full business change transformation project, and it's very senior.
It's not someone that's going to just be doing event organizing. That is your sustainability strategy, right? So they need to go on a bit of a journey sometimes, but equally when you're hiring, um, Be open minded to talk to candidates that have great track records, uh, and professional, you know, your normal track record, even if they don't have all the skill sets and for the candidates, be open to talking to companies because you'll find the roles are changing quite a lot throughout the interview process when they realize that the skills and the breadth of knowledge and ability that you can bring to the business, um, and then evolves it through there because it is so changeable.
It is fractured at the moment and it is hard to navigate.
Charlie: So you're almost finding the process of recruitment is a rewriting of brief because they understand the question they're asking.
Serrol: Yeah. Yeah. Not for the consultancies of the more mature, uh, [00:38:00] sustainability focused business, but for the client side in house roles.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, I do get a lot of requirements where somebody, uh, has taken on the sustainability mantle internally, but hasn't come from a sustainability background and they might've had another job internally. Yeah. say, I don't know, finance manager, and they've left and they want to hire a finance manager.
That's also sustainability specialist as a like for like replacement, and they don't tend to exist. Right. And it's sustainability. People don't want to be the finance manager. So there is a lot of change. I still talk to companies as large as two fifties that really don't quite know how, what they're doing, which I find surprising sometimes.
Uh, and people, um, that are coming into the market, they have to be careful with regard to how you come to market, especially if you're doing it as a large known brand, because if you go to market incorrectly, it can have a lot of reputational damage. If you go out there naively thinking they want to head a sustainability for 40, 000 pounds, you know, and I had a candidate the other day that got through.
It was a very, [00:39:00] very good candidate. Not one of my jobs, but she was telling me about it. Um, and, um, yeah, they offered her like, yeah, a derisory amount, should we say for the responsibilities of the job and that just reflects, and I don't just think that they don't necessarily value it, I think it's more ignorance on the whole, sometimes it can go the other way.
Um, but yeah, it's, um, yeah, I would advise anyone looking to hire like a SME coming to the market. Initially, there's a lot of knowledge now, uh, and increasingly around C suite and non exec directors, but talk to people that, you know, to try and work out, but the other bit, and I was touched upon this earlier with contractors are, well, firstly, actually anyone in sustainability wants to be impactful.
Right. I've not spoken to any candidate that doesn't want to be purpose led and change, but also they're really willing to help. Right. So it's a wonderful place for me to be working at the moment. I've worked in some, should we say drier, uh, employment workforce topics or areas. Um, and, uh, you will get people that are willing to help, but there's a lot of [00:40:00] skills and knowledge people out there.
You could bring in a consultant at a high level for two days, right. And they can look at your business and just give you the guidance because it's very confusing. to even when you're in it. So looking at it from the outset, all these regulations and the, you know, the framework acronym soup, you know, uh, the, of, you know, what does it all mean?
What do I have to do? They bring someone in, they can talk you through everything quite quickly. I would say, or give you the right kind of levers and directions to pull rather than immediately going and paying some very famous consultancy, a lot of money that you don't necessarily need to, you can bring in.
Contractors or consultancy just to put in your strategy and your framework and then hire someone into mid level management to deliver on that, right? You don't necessarily have to have a really high paid sustainability director forever. You can bring someone on a contract basis, or you're going to find more people in fractional.
roles where they're doing part time bits here and bits there, but there's a lot of people in sustainability who want to help. And the other thing is, unless you're in a [00:41:00] sector that's quite complex, like mining or chemical manufacturing, most sustainability strategies can be white labelled. They are much a muchness and you can kind of bring them off the shelf.
You have to tailor them to your own individual company's needs and where you are. Absolutely. Um, but that's why I'm pretty confident most sustainability leaders, they don't have to work in your sector, right? Uh, they can come in, uh, and give you quite good advice very quickly. Um, yes, you know, there would be depth of things like materiality assessments and everything else to go through.
Right. But for the top level, I think it's that initial, you know, those first few steps, and then you kind of know which directions you need to be going in and it just gets you on that path. And I think that would be that that's my advice to most companies. They can talk to specialists. Please talk to specialists in the area rather than generalists that do everything because they will give you the, the agencies, uh, the consultancy.
So they've been done best recently went to the downturn, have been the specialist sustainability consultancies. [00:42:00] They have been the busier ones. They have been ones that hiring and the other areas, obviously for hiring, sorry, just going back to being quieter, being the ones with more regulatory pressure, like the built environment.
Um, you know, where they know when they have to go, the big globals have been pushing on, but that's because they've got more regulatory pressure, obviously, because they have to abide to things. But they also can commit to things once they've got going, you know, they know where the market's going, they can keep investing into, you know, pushing their sustainability journey along.
Um, but yeah, so I went off on one. No,
Will: all really, really useful. And thank you. You said something about contractors and the industry not using them enough. One of the things that's has actually always been around. There's a lot of one person bands, um, associates. And though there are quite a lot of consultancies that use an associate model, it was a model that I decided not to use for various reasons.
Um, but I know some very good people who are, and they're basically contractors.
Serrol: [00:43:00] Yeah. They run their own business. One person bands. I mean, I, I actually see less of those in the market than I thought I might see it. So I don't know if a lot of them have been taken into these other jobs. Yeah. There's still lots around.
Yeah. There are lots of them.
Will: No, there are lots. There are lots and lots and lots around. We, we, I know that because we partner with huge amount of them through the business and it going on to that and something else you said, which, um, I want to almost, I want Shout about a bit more is this industry has always been really good at collaboration early days.
I've had companies in advertising companies that have talked to their direct competitors about what it is that they're doing because they want to share. And I think that's I mean, I've never worked in an industry that isn't like that because I've always worked in this industry. So I think I would find it quite hard to go and work in finance because not everyone's really nice, but everyone's really nice in this industry.
Yeah.
Serrol: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I was [00:44:00] alluding to earlier. I mean, people will help with that. People literally want to help. I mean, if you're a small company, I could guarantee if you reach out there enough, you might get someone come in free for two days. Just because they want to help you on your sustainability journey.
And look, you know, if they are a one man band or a contractor and you need help in the future, you know, why not go back to them? Right. And pay them in the, in the future. But so it can be good for building business, but there's just so many people wanting to help each other. There's a lot of groups out there.
Uh, there's a lot of, um, sector specific groups, there's things on LinkedIn, you know, there's a lot of knowledge out there. It can be really confusing, but I promise you if you're not sure, reach out and a lot of people will come back and help you. And that's the great thing about the space at the moment.
It's very positive for me.
Charlie: Do we find that there's a sort of a, a link to that, that there's greater satisfaction for people working in the sector from your, I mean, that might just be from what you've observed or, you know, is there any stats?
Serrol: Yeah, I don't know if there's any stats around it. I haven't seen any.
Obviously, that comes with frustrations, right? Because I talked to a lot of candidates where they're slightly frustrated their job isn't as [00:45:00] impactful as they want, and they want to be making more change, right? So, uh, that has its own frustrations. But I think, you know, feeling that you're actually part of, you know, Trying to get us on the right course, right.
So, you know, decouple us from an economy built on fossil fuels and greenhouse gas emissions and everything else, right. It is going to be a journey. There's going to be a lot of change, but it's very important steps. You know, you've got to look your kids in the eyes, haven't you? And, um, tell them what you do.
Uh, at some point they're going to be asking, uh, and they're only going to learn more about it. And there's. There's so much negative news. Obviously, there's a lot of worrying things that come out, but like the temperatures last year, there's a lot of companies out there that are unseen that are doing a lot of great things.
Uh, and there is a lot of momentum. Um, and even if the politicians aren't going to take a hold of it, I think. You know, we all know what we need to do. So we'll just get on without them and that the companies are pushing ahead. We need regulatory change and pressure to drive everybody. Absolutely. And it needs to be better audited and it needs to be driven through.
Um, but [00:46:00] there is a lot of positivity out there at the moment. There's some great people doing some great things. Uh, and, um, yeah, it's, it's a joy to speak to them on a daily basis. I just wish I could do more.
Charlie: No, it is really interesting. I'd say it's one thing I've observed working in the sustainability architecture built environment sectors is the levels.
To which people will talk to each other. And it's one of the bits of advice I give everyone is that what I don't want to do is just like phone up people in this sector near you and talk to them and they will help you. I'll almost guarantee they'll help you to begin with for nothing. And then, you know, that might grow into, into, into work, but it's nice to see that that's how it works across, across the wider sector.
You talked earlier about this idea of if you want to Trans, you know, move from one sector into sustainability sector is not to try and focus in too sharp to sort of start in a wider circle and, and spiral in what advice would you give to people wanting to enter the sector of your 18, 19 thinking about university?
What do you see the best routes into this, this industry?
Serrol: Yeah, it's a good [00:47:00] question. So there's, um, again, cause it's evolving so much. I don't think there's one particular direction you need to go in. too early, right? Um, you know, yes, you know, you see a lot of people at the moment with biology and geography and things like that, but GCSEs, you know, keep it fairly, A levels, you start to focus a little bit more.
Absolutely. But I would kind of go with my broad to narrow again, right? So don't go into a degree unless you really know you want to do something really specific. and too narrow. Uh, go into something, uh, at a bachelor level, that's reasonably broad across sustainability or, you know, environmental sciences or something along those lines.
And then once you've got that knowledge space, then focus on doing a master's. If you want to do a master's into something more niche, because I think that's the point really, rather than going in, but all degrees are picked up at the moment. Um, you know, people are interested, but anyone with any type of sustainability experience, but, you know, as the market evolves, you're going to need people, you know, with maths still in English, you know, [00:48:00] and those, those important skillset, it's only going to get more digital.
So, you know, those softer skills are important as well, though.
Will: I've always seen, A lot of, um, degrees in geography and if I'm honest, I didn't really understand it for the first 10 years because I, cause I didn't do geography.
Charlie: It's about maps. Will, it's about maps!
Will: But now I've got experience and this is it. This is
Will: exactly it. So now I've got experience in this industry to a degree that I now look at geography and go, actually, it's a very good degree because it has the maths. It has the glaciers, has everything this industry has. And I, I could totally understand why geographers end up in this field because of the, what they've been taught.
Serrol: Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I've been, I'm not close enough to know. what these current degrees are doing. I mean, I did environmental management, uh, which is a, uh, a broad science degree, which covered everything from [00:49:00] biology down to economics, uh, and everything along those kinds of lines. I think they're probably called environmental sciences now, but, uh, it was really, really detailed, you know, I had to do the effects of lead on periwinkles and all kinds of things, but we know we were doing GIS.
Work then, and that's the end of last century. Right. So we were getting trained on GIS and doing mapping and, you know, looking at pieces like that. And yeah, I mean, there's some great broad areas there and that then will focus you down maybe on areas of interest. You know, you can do work experience, you can do voluntary internships, uh, and then, you know, you can start to even pick up some of those eight week type courses or, or a masters.
Uh, if you kind of know where you want to go or, uh, again, do something that's complimentary and bring all that knowledge to your next role
Charlie: earlier on, you, you were brave enough to make a prediction about what you thought the jobs market would do later this year. I mean, do you have a sense of what you think it's going to do over the next three or four years of this is something that people are thinking about moving into over that sort of timeframe.
Serrol: Yeah. I mean, it's like digital, right? We know where we're [00:50:00] going. It has to happen. It is going to happen. We all want it to happen quicker, right? There's no doubt about that. Anyone in the industry just wants, you know, we want more now and let's get going. Um, but there are wider influences and economic pressure is going to be important, right?
As a CFO of a business, if you're under financial pressure last year, it was easier to kick the sustainability can down the road and not start delivering on your strategy. Right. So, you know, with the negative hat on, you could say we were just using your standard strategy to wave to shareholders and say, you're great, but companies need to make profit because, uh, and, and there's going to be a lot of pressures, you know, if we look at climate change and, and what that can impact, that's going to have broadly.
And even on a micro level for individual companies, it's going to be impactful, but the only way we're going to you know, deal with that is actually by making progress. So people aren't going to start pushing on and going those areas. When we start getting better examples around circular economy, you know, it's a big change, isn't it?
To change the economy into the kind of one of the future that they keep [00:51:00] talking about. But again, you still see, you hear great stories at the moment about people in the building industry, you know, not just throwing so much stuff away or, you know, talking to each other. You know, I think that's where sustainability can be really useful because they can be that conduit of communication in regards of we've got this, you know, can you use it and start to build a more circular economy around those areas forecast?
It's hard, right? Um, you know, you know, is Russia going to invade somewhere else? China going to go somewhere else? You know, it's Donald Trump going to get into power. You know, you saw you saw Texas. Just yesterday was it 8. 5 billion pounds. I pulled out a black rock cause they don't believe in ESG. So, you know, it's, um, it's going to be turbulent.
Uh, I think we know that, but we also know where we need to go. And I think that pressure is going to drive hiring. Um, and, uh, yeah, there will be, uh, it's going to be interesting. It's going to be up and down, but it's going to be growing.
Charlie: And do you think that the potential lurch to the right that we might see across Europe certainly potentially looks more and more likely in America is going to slow [00:52:00] this transition or do you think businesses is not looking at four years, they're looking at 10, 20 years?
Serrol: Um, I think big business, which is going to drive everything else is looking further ahead. I think the regulations are coming through, right? So politicians are kind of short term. And short term in their thinking, but there is an underlying weight of regulation coming through. Have you seen that with the EU this year?
Yes. Some of it's been slightly diluted, but it's starting to come through. If a company wants to sell into Europe, they have to meet these regulations, right? Uh, how stringently they're going to be audited and how. Detailed. This is going to be, you know, is it just, you have to write something on an RFI about, Oh, we're great at this.
And this is what we say we're going to do and don't follow up on it. Who knows? But, you know, with AI coming through, you can start to look at deforestation. You can start, you know, the carbons market starting to evolve now. You know, I was listening to really interesting MSCI. forecasting on this year. And, um, they were talking about how they think the carbon market is going to start to evolve because they can actually get better measurement, uh, and hold things [00:53:00] to accounts, you know, even biodiversity, you know, and start to, I mean, how complicated is that to measure, but, you know, they're starting to make some, some, some headway there.
So there's, there's a lot of, Weight of movement, uh, and it's not going to get, it's going to be too, you know, they, they might be lots of headlines, which are going to impact smaller businesses, but I think the bigger, bigger businesses, the bigger weights starting to move, and that's going to have to pull everyone with it.
Charlie: And that's going to mean more jobs and good quality jobs. Brilliant. Serrol. Thank you very much. That's a fascinating insight into a really fast moving dynamic and critically very important area. So thanks for that. As that was very interesting. Well that's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved.
Next month we're going to be talking about a new report into sustainability in the funeral industry. Now it may not be a topic that any of us want to think about but one of the oldest professions is changing with some radical new approaches to end of life. Make sure you hit follow in your app so you get [00:54:00] notified as soon as that episode drops.
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