Season 4, Episode 129 : Doug Johnson

Will Richardson 00:05
Hi, Doug, thank you so much for joining us today on the Green Element Podcast. I'm really excited to explore more about what Mesh Energy do and how you help organisations because I think what's gonna be brilliant from this podcast is you will allow others to understand what more they can actually do to reduce that environmental impact. Can you explain a bit about who you are and the organisation you work for, please?

Doug Johnson 00:34
Sure, sure. So, I run a consultancy practice, we're we're a team of about 10 individuals working out of the home counties. And we are, we aim and we are an independent and holistic energy consultancy practice. So we work with predominantly architects, private clients, you know, commercial clients, who are building buildings, doing extensions, figuring out how their offices or their homes or their buildings, or almost on any scale can be more energy efficient. And they approach us to help them navigate them, you know, navigate through that, navigate through planning issues, compliance designs, you know, all the services design that needs to go on, looking for appropriately qualified installers, helping them through an ever more complex construction process. And increasingly getting access to a lot of government money that's floating around to make buildings and businesses and private dwellings more sustainable. So we really try to act as a guide through that process, to help businesses out that this may be foreign territory, and is increasingly for a lot of businesses, and bringing together all our experience to help those guys out. So they're giving you the best chance of success on that particular scheme.

Will Richardson 02:12
And you must be phenomenally good at what you do because it's interesting. I actually anticipated you to say that you are larger than you are, because I've mentioned you to a few people in Scotland, and they know exactly who Mesh Energy are. And so you've got a very good reputation that precedes you.

Doug Johnson 02:34
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's always nice to it's always nice to hear. What is what is fascinating is that whilst sustainability and energy efficiency now you can't get away from it, there are hundreds of articles written every single day in the press. And, you know, it's hitting mainstream media every single day. But actually, the challenges and the people actually equipped and the consultancies are equipped to deliver against that are, you know, on not very great in not very great a number. And, you know, whilst there are lots and lots of companies and consultancies and very, very big consultancies that are used to delivering, building and construction projects, energy efficiency is, you know, is a new take on that, which is, which is tricky. And, you know, we as a business, try and do a lot of promotional work through education, as well, which, you know, we may well come on to talk about, but there's a, there's a lot to learn, and we do try our best to get our name out there in front of projects and people and companies so that we can, we can help out when necessary.

Will Richardson 03:44
I was talking to an event this morning, and one of the guests, or one of the participants, asked a question about energy efficiency. And it was in they were talking about people's homes. But I wonder if this still is attributed to businesses, where at this current moment in time, our interest rates are so low, that you're actually better off investing in the business, you know, the fabric of the building that you're in, then you are to put it into a nicer because you'll get more return on investment with it. Would you say that's the case?

Doug Johnson 04:25
Yeah, I mean, the hard truth about returns on most things in the bank at the moment is that it's, it's pretty negligible. But what is absolutely clear in particularly in, in bigger buildings, you know, that the opportunity is greater to save more energy in bigger, more complex buildings. It's a very, very scalable thing, energy efficiency, you can make sometimes small differences to small developments, and very, very big differences to very, very big development. So I can completely see that argument, I mean, we have something at Mesh Energy, which we call the energy hierarchy, which is a lot of energy-saving and sustainability is based on a lot of common sense and rules of physics and fabric efficiency is right up there. You know, if you're looking at the best way to get, let's say, bang for your buck, if you had 10 quid in your pocket, what was the best way of spending that? Well, if you can better insulate the, you know, the jacket, the jacket that goes around the building, regardless of what your heating system is, or whatever your you know, your fuel is for keeping that building warm, you know, you've changed that for the better, regardless of what you're using for the lifetime of the insulation you've put on there. So, energy efficiency, particularly around fabric improvements, has a massive effect has an even greater effect, when the running costs are much higher. So if you had a manufacturing facility or a big town block offices, there are some big, big changes that you can make for not spending a great deal of money.

Will Richardson 06:10
And does it depend on the type of building that you have for the type of insulation that you would use? I mean, is there more environmentally, you hear this story about, you know, maybe a more chemically insulating build fabric has a high rate, the USS out of 10 has eight out of 10 starts off with but then after five years has dropped to three out of 10. And then maybe a more natural fabric starts off at six, but then stays at six pretty much through the full 10 years. I mean.

Doug Johnson 06:51
I mean, I think there's a fascinating discussion to be had around particularly embodied carbon, which is a, you know, a big thing hitting people's radar. So, essentially, the decarbonisation of insulation of buildings, I mean, the degradation of the insulation properties, I kind of get that, but certainly business owners need to be aware beyond, you know, the things that we've recently seen with fire regulations, and, you know, Granville Towers, and some of the issues with high rise buildings, is that balance between making sure that buildings are more energy-efficient, the perpetual battle with thickness and space, you know, and, you know, dimensional constraints on the building, but actually the responsible nature in which that has been manufactured. So, if you look at say, I mean, Celotex is a very popular brand, you know, this, this kind of rigid insulation that you see on almost every building site, you cut it with a saw, the highly rigid has got silver for front and the back now that that that phone uses a tonne of Petrick, petrochemicals and some pretty nasty stuff to manufacture in the first place, it's highly efficient. And it means that you can have a much thinner dimension of installation to, you know, help you save energy compared to, let's say, the other end of the spectrum, sheep's will, you know, straight off the back of a sheep, very little processing. But you need a much, much thicker amount of insulation, you know, you can, you can achieve the same insulation values, but you've got thicker and thinner amounts that you need. One is a very, very responsible way of providing that insulation, and one is increasingly becoming a big, big no, no, for various reasons. And so we see a big transition. And this is one of the headaches, particularly if people are looking at improving the insulation on their building, to not only look at the products that they're using in their actual thermal performance, but from a more responsible angle of sourcing that insulation and what it is doing to our planet, putting that installation on the building to energy, if that makes sense.

Will Richardson 09:18
Yeah, that makes complete sense. And when organisations come to you, what sort of conversations do you have with them, initially?

Doug Johnson 09:30
It tends to fall into two categories, really. There are a big bunch of companies that come to us and say we're, you know, we're looking at making this change, and the local authority expects us to jump over this particular bar. Now, that may be something called Brianne it may be a certain level of carbon reduction by way of a percentage. And so they're very much you know, kind of stick, you know, we're being asked to, we're being forced to do this. How do we do this as cost-effectively as possible, you know, we're not going to go over and above, but we understand that we, you know, we've got some energy-efficient criteria that we need to meet. So how, how can we kind of professionally navigate that and make sure we're doing what we need to do. And then the other type of conversation that we have from clients is, and this is increasingly the case is we understand that there is a compliance that we have to meet for this building. But what's really important for our brand is to show that, you know, this will be an exemplar building, or we see a big opportunity to market this as net-zero carbon or a considerable, you know, a considerable improvement on what is expected. And they can see the wider opportunity there for telling a much more compelling story to their staff, to their clients, to their customers. And certainly, that the latter of those two is a really interesting one, because it allows you to, for any of those guys who are listening to the podcast, or any of you guys have read Simon Sinek, he talks about this kind of Golden Circle principle, you've got how, what and why. And then the middle of that is, is the why. And I think increasingly as businesses do the sustainability stuff, the really interesting conversation is, is why are you doing it, and there's a huge job opportunity there. And that certainly generates some of the more enlightening conversations for our clients is really digging underneath all of those layers and finding out beyond, you know, just, you know, kind of a business becoming more profitable. What are the real reasons for them doing this sustainability stuff? And I think we'll continue seeing more of that as time goes on.

Will Richardson 11:53
It's really, it's really interesting. Do you have a building for your team to go into? Or do you work all remotely?

Doug Johnson 12:04
A bit of both, actually, I mean, we, as I say, our offices are in a lovely, it's not quite listed, but it looks like a kind of a listed building, right smack bang in the middle of Farnum in Surrey. It's a three-storey building, we have you know, we have a lease on the whole building, but we have a beautiful top office with some great views and building sites at the minute loads of exposed beams. Down, there's lots of laughs and plaster and stuff in the building, hopefully, much asbestos, though, at the moment, it's me in the three-storey building all on my own, and the guys, and the guys are working from home. And, you know, we'll see when restrictions ease what that new blank people come to the office is like.

Will Richardson 12:46
I guess what I'm getting at is, are you uh, are you a nightmare to have as a tenant because you are wanting to push your landlord? Or if you are a landlord, are you trying to perpetually? You know, have you chosen the space? Or, you know, how, how does your knowledge impact your own decisions?

Doug Johnson 13:07
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we, in many ways, we're kind of stuck with, with, with what we have, I mean, by who's just had the pleasure of leasing a building knows that maybe beyond kind of painting the walls and, and maybe changing the carpets, you know, it's unlikely you're going to make any big, big changes. One thing that really sticks out in my mind that I mean, you know, I'm saying here, and then office with single glazed windows, probably nil, no insulation in the, no insulation in the roof. But a fascinating conversation I was having the other day with some of my other tenants. Actually, these are, these are guys who are into sustainable marketing. So, the market for sustainable brands and businesses. And funnily enough, they do our marketing. And we were talking to them about big corporations status. Now, for any of your listeners who don't know what B Corporation Businesses are, it's definitely it's actually a legal entity, and it's a move to businesses being more responsible for, you know, looking after their staff and looking after the environment and being more responsible businesses in a much, much wider context. And as a business, we are doing that. But one of those things as part of the verification process was looking at, you know, where we source our energy from, you know, who we buy our gas from, who we buy our electricity from? And both of our companies were going through that verification process at the same time, and we were having a conversation about well, okay, you know, yes, we might be on the you know, the cheapest, you know, British Gas deal or Aeon energy deal. But actually, you know, when that comes up for renewal or whether we do it earlier, shouldn't we just be going for, you know, 100% green tariffs. Now, that is something we can change. It's very, very trivial. Yes, the cost is a bit more money. But you know that's something that sticks in my mind that we, you know, we can be doing pretty, pretty rapidly. And that doesn't affect the building in another way, but is, you know, is a big Northerner and ticking the box for something we have got, or something we can change and have, have got power over changing as a business.

Will Richardson 15:21
So if you're going through the B Corp process, how do you engage your staff, suppliers, and customers with your mission and purpose?

Doug Johnson 15:31
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's an interesting one, it's always working in progress, I think, being a, you know, you cut through the middle of our business, and we're, you know, we're kind of sustainable to the core, we talk about our purpose a lot. And we have done some thinking over the last 12 months to, you know, reinstate that and make make sure that was clear, I think that the purpose that we used to have as a business was, was actually a kind of a mission statement. But our purposes of businesses to inspire and for just a sustainable legacy. And we talk about that very, very often within the team. So when you know, when when we're looking at this, you know, this, this B Corp move, and the team completely understands why we're doing that they understand why that's important. It weaves in very, very nicely with some of the other you know, kind of incentives and things that we've got going as a business. And certainly, beyond just saying that we're sustainable, we're very keen about inspiring others. And as you mentioned there that you know, our supply chain, the people that we're working with, the people that we interact with, to be more sustainable, learn how to be more sustainable, and better understand the topic. And that's why we do a lot of educational work as a business. So yeah, you know, that the staff, you know, the staff get that, and I say, we talk about that on a regular basis.

Will Richardson 17:14
When it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business, what would you say has been your biggest struggle so far? Can you tell us a bit about how you've overcome it?

Doug Johnson 17:22
Yeah, I think kind of on out on a practical day to day to day basis. So I said, I formally set this business up seven years ago, from a bedroom, it was me, a chair, a desk, and a laptop. And like it, like every business when it starts, in most cases, it's an idea. And you know, a lot of cold calling goes on. And I think one of the biggest practical challenges over the last five or six years really has been getting people to just open their minds about and look at sustainable technologies, look at alternatives to gas-liquid alternatives to oil fuel. And this is when we're dealing with clients who are on those fuels already bit a bit houses or businesses. What has made that a lot easier for us, in many ways is the big shake-up around the pandemic and the changing in people's priorities over the last 12 months. And speaking to many people in the sector, I think the last 12 and 18 months has had a radical change in the way that the wider public. And as a result, businesses are taking sustainability more far, far more seriously. So on a practical day to day basis, we have less conversations where we're trying to persuade and convince, you know, pre-qualified when they, when they pick up the phone, they get it, though, because they're seeing it, friends are talking about it, they're seeing on the news, they, you know, they've had a discussion with their family over the dinner table about, you know, what's happening to the earth and the fact that it's warming up or, you know, some of these other things. So that's a fascinating change. And I think, I mean, the other I'm just trying to think about the other kind of struggles, that has been a big one. I think for me, as a business owner, I thought about this one before we were kind of prepping for the podcast, I think what is difficult to or initially for me, I had to kind of get my head around is we are smack bang in the middle of a kind of a sustainable revolution where, you know, we're very well placed as a consultancy, to ride the growing wave that that's coming and building underneath us. And I think if I was being a kind of a cold, hard business person, you could view being an ethical business making contributions to charity, making contributions to carbon offsetting, you know, doing the right thing by staff, you know, going for this B Corp certification, as you know, well, if I didn't do those things, then I'd have a lot more money in the bank and I would be a more profitable, profitable business. And I think, as, as a business owner, I've come to realise that by investing in those sustainable aspects to the business, which, on the face of it, are a cost are actually a, quite a smart investment. Because if you invest No, in those right kinds of things, you've got to say, a far more compelling brand story. And, you know, you're really walking the walk for your, for your clients, you know people, people, clients customers, see through the greenwash, if it's a web page that says you're sustainable, and you do nothing else in that regard. People very, very quickly realise that it's, it's utter, utter total. And so I say, we do those things. And I can sleep well, I can talk convincingly to our customers and clients. And it's a struggle I've overcome as a business owner, and one that I'm at peace with and can see the real wider benefit, particularly to, you know, recruitment and staff that are working in the business because they see as warts and all as well, and they get the, you know, the businesses in it for the long haul and making those sustainable investments in the right places.

Will Richardson 21:25
Absolutely, when we were just commissioned a piece of work to look at what B Corp enhances, or the and the environment enhances us and clients, and staff, and retention of people is absolutely quite very high up there. But equally, there's quite a lot of research that shows that businesses that have a vision and purpose that is or puts the purpose above profits actually do better in the long run, they have more longevity, they, and they are actually more profitable, they grow faster. Let's because people buy off people, the end of the day, if you've got two choices, which one are you going to go for? The one that you'd quite like to work with, or the one that you just go, we're just delivering a service.

Doug Johnson 22:18
Yeah, and, and that's true. And I think, you know, now more than ever, we realise that, as I mentioned before, the groundswell of public opinion and the priorities of purchase now is becoming a bigger and bigger and bigger deal. And like you said, if you're, if you're in a lineup, and you are doing things as a business, which are, are seen as touching your customers, you know, kind of sensibilities, and that just kind of chimes with what they're trying to do. Of course, they would, you know, they would take your proposal more seriously, even if it was more expensive, you know, within, you know, you are, you're setting yourself apart for a very, very good and honest reason. And there's a chance to the customer when they buy from you is already invested, you know, you're not just starting from a standing start, they know the fact that the service that you provide is kind of what they're after, but they know that they're aligning with a business that kind of gets them because they've already pre-selected the business because this is shown when it's doing so it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating way that things are changing, and people are looking beyond just what's the list price of a particular service, doing their due diligence, you know, it's very easy to find information on businesses out, find out what they're doing, what contributions they're making, what their mission and purpose is, if you choose to make that clear. You know, we're up for that. And we have already seen that working in our favour.

Will Richardson 24:02
to those listeners that know that they listen on a regular basis, they know that actually I very rarely say something good about, you know, it's not this podcast is that is about you, but just recently, we pitched for some work. And we were double the what our next person was because they said they would do it for half price for a case study. And they said that they would go with us, which backs up and we have never seen that I had that before. So absolutely backs up what you've just said, and hence bringing into the conversation. I think that's something that's really well worth taking home. When building your business and, and, you know, just trying to grow your business is thinking about that. It's so much more powerful than you think and you can't put money on it. You can't like you've just said, yeah, you could, you're right not to the charity work not do that not do this. And yes, you, in theory, would have a probably 10-15% better profit margin. But, you know, you're not in a stronger position to win the work.

Doug Johnson 25:18
I think particularly, you know, looking at, again, from a business owner's perspective, we, we very much see that as a massive appeal for recruiting team members for a growing business as well. And so, it becomes self-fulfilling, if you're a business, which I'd say you cut through the middle, and you're genuinely sustainable kind of, through and through and through, and you can, you know, you can be profitable, that will attract a higher calibre of, of individual, and you just kept, you know, while somebody may have had a while somebody may have a particular degree or a particular type of experience. And, you know, you'll increasingly find that if you're looking to attract, you know, kind of younger team members, you know, for millennials, or generation Z, or, you know, whatever the younger guys and girls are called now, it really, really, really matters to them. Having that purpose, having that mission, and they're already so motivated to do a great job records that they really, you know, strongly, strongly believe in. And that makes a business owner's job so much easier because you can't, you know, paying somebody a higher salary that that washes away pretty quickly. And you're left with, why am I doing this work? Why am I contributing to this business? And so, you know, whilst your accountant might say, Oh, well, you can save a bit of money here, you can save a bit of money there, you know, that the team members that form that growing team or growing business, as you said, you can't, you can't qualify that. And if those people who are engaged with what the business is doing because of its sustainable credentials, are finding you, rather than going through a recruitment consultant, that's pretty, that's pretty easily traceable back to a, to a saving to, you know, it's, it does make life considerably easier, and people who are serious about running their businesses into the future need to get on board with that. Because if you don't, you're, you know, dare I say, your competitors are going to be able to siphon off those more engaged talents out of the pool. And you're gonna be left with the guys who it guys and gals who are on so engaged, so make sure you are the former of those two, and it really doesn't, you know, you're not talking about changing the face of your business. You just took a different messaging and just making sure that you're, you're happy with doing something more than you're doing to that.

Will Richardson 28:08
So going on to the next question, if I may ask, have you carbon footprinted your organisation?

Doug Johnson 28:17
That is a very good question. And you all know, the honest answer is no, I couldn't give you a specific number. What what I was very keen to, they were very lucky, because we're not manufacturing cars, we're not, you know, we're not travelling the length and breadth of Britain in, you know, in vehicles and trucks and things. We are a consultancy business, we benefit greatly from zoom, you know, lots of ones in binary output meetings with clients. You know, we do work across the UK and Europe and you know, even recently in the States, so we were very kind of low, low impact anyway. But one of the things that I was was keen to do from the start was to make sure that we were no kind of carbon neutral. So we've gone out of our way beyond the great work that we do on people's projects, helping them be more sustainable. We have gone out of our way to using gold standard projects, offset carbon, and make sure that everybody who is part of the business has their minimal carbon footprint, they have off offset. And again, that's a contribution that we make, to make sure that we are doing our bit and going beyond that. And in fact, we do that for our customers now as well.

Will Richardson 29:44
In what way so, I mean, thinking about measuring?

Doug Johnson 29:52
Yeah, so, just to clarify that we made a commitment, as I say beyond helping other people with their energy efficiency. We made a commitment to do more than being a carbon-neutral business. And so the something that we started the beginning of this year is we said, right, okay, you know, we need to do more here, we've got to remain a profitable business. But we need to do more here. And we committed to taking a percentage of our business's revenue, not profit, but the business's revenue, and again, help with tree planting schemes and carbon offsetting schemes. So we've decided that 1% of our business's revenue, which would be considerably more based on the profitability of the business goes to projects. And we and we do that for every individual client. So as many as money passes through the business, we have projects and clumps of trees that are planted across the globe, we make the client aware that we've gone above and beyond to do that for them. And so, whilst we don't claim necessarily quantify, you know, count, counting every last kind of kilogramme of carbon, what we have done is, you know, made a major contribution, as they beyond the work that the actual service that we've provided, which is proportional to the amount of consultancy, you know, time that we spent on that project, which is ultimately about the end.

Will Richardson 31:25
That makes, yeah, that makes sense. I can understand that. And is there any advice that you could offer? Listeners, I'd like to actually kind of go back to our initial chats, I mean, for we're coming to the end of the podcast now. But is there any advice that you would give businesses starting out on their journey? Knowing what you know. So if they're looking for offices, or if they're, you know, what, what would you look for? What would you, what would you go for? And what sort of questions could you ask?

Doug Johnson 32:07
Blimey. Yeah, that's a big question. I mean, beyond my mindset, my interpretation, I think my interpretation of that question is, if, rather than establish a business as a business, that is really an idea at this stage, and maybe starting with, with one or two or a few people, you know, from very, very kind of seed of an idea. And I would say, I thought about this before, because I've talked about this with other business owners, but I think, you know, beyond, first and foremost, you've got to have a profitable idea, you've got to make sure your price point is right and got money to play with to better, you know, your offering, so that, you know, you don't go bust in the process, there's no point in being sustainable and being responsible if you can't make money and sustain yourself and grow the business. And so I think it's a, it's very misunderstood, that being sustainable running a responsible business has to be expensive. It doesn't have to be what once you figured out what your you know, what your services or your product is, for the wider market. There are some you know, mission and purpose things that you've got to get straight. I mean, if you can spend the time on really figuring out what your core messages and core purposes for the business, which is often, you know, means that it means a great deal to the needs of the business that business starters, and the entrepreneurs that have started the business, that's, that's one thing that they can do. But beyond, you know, beyond that, once you get into, say, you know, voluntary carbon offsetting, or voluntary contributions to, you know, to things to lessen your impact, then, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be a lot of money, but it's got to be something which you can afford to, you know, to give up on a monthly basis or a quarterly basis, however frequently you want to do it. I don't think there's, you know, a number one thing to do and number two thing to do, a number three thing to do. We've talked about if you have your own offices, does it make sense to have them you know, 100% renewably sourced by way of say electricity or, or gas or those kinds of things? And I think it really depends on the listeners, you know, priorities but there are many, many sources that have you know, a list of things that you can take a look at, and the best thing is, don't rush into anything. You know, take your time, figure out what you can do. Figure out what the costs are, figure out what the You know, complexities of making that particular change. And then you know, pick a couple to do, you know, start with something. You have got to do ever got to be the world's most sustainable business ever. Just do these things one at a time. And you'll soon figure out how much hassle is how much money it costs you, you know, and then genuinely hand on heart, you can start promoting that you aren't doing those things. So beyond filling out it, you've got a great story to tell there then no suppliers and customers, and you know that you were doing those things. It's not just greenwashing.

Will Richardson 35:34
And if, are there any particular websites other, I mean, you may be that your own is a good, good resource to find next. I know when we initially chatted, I talked about the fact that we did up our bungalow. And they had been, you know, nothing had been done to it since the early 60s. And so we literally gutted it and I was a bit disappointed of our architect because although he said he was environmental the environmental things that he that were talked about green roofs and solar panels and stuff that I was about, well, yeah, expensive that a lot of insulation or so we ended up triple glazing the windows, we ended up putting a lot more insulation in and the builder actually turned around when I don't think you need any more insulation. Well, seriously, you've probably got enough for this building at the moment. But I was going down the stuff that I knew, which was pretty rudimentary and I work in this industry. So how hard is it for people to and other places that people can go to to find how to do things properly?

Doug Johnson 36:52
I mean, that that is a really tricky, that's a really tricky question. I think that is something that we are we're trying to resolve ourselves, there is a lot of people turn to, you know, Internet search engines and stuff to try and find out where they're asked their mate what they would, what they would do, or they just try and use their common sense. Or they buy a whole load of books from, you know, an internet bookshop, for example, to try and read up on it themselves and then make a kind of a ham-fisted attempt at trying to figure it out themselves. There are, you know, there are a few websites, but honestly, it is a real minefield, it is not an easy place at the moment to get that advice. There are consultancies, like around, there are a growing number of consultancies that are offering advice, very few actual independent advice, product manufacturers will offer you advice, hand over fist, trying to then ultimately sell the product. But it is really, really tricky. And we discussed before that we are very, very close to launching a platform which we think will help point people in a better direction and give people a chance to a chance to hang out. And that is exactly what this industry needs. You know, there is a big knowledge and education piece of work that needs doing over the next few well into the middle of the decade and beyond. And it's pretty scant pickings at the moment. But as I say we're working on trying to, change that because of the opportunity there.

Will Richardson 38:36
Brilliant, brilliant. From what I could see, there's a massive opportunity. So I'm really glad someone's doing it. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Doug for being on the podcast today. It has been really interesting listening to you and understanding more about your business and what it is that you guys get up to.

Doug Johnson 38:55
Yeah, great, thank you. And I'd say to anybody listening, do check us out, and Mesh Energy, but the website is a great pool of resources, but we're always happy to have people pick up the phone and just start that discussion. And I think increasingly, you know, we can, we can all help each other out. We just got to be more collaborative and be able to. So the is www.mesh-energy.com. And let's say we're more than happy to have a chat with you and see if we can point you in the right direction or maybe help you out longer term with your, you know, with what you're trying to do.

Will Richardson 39:35
Really well we'll be putting all those details on the website. So thank you so much. Thank you.

Doug Johnson 39:42
Thanks for your time. Well, cheers. Take care.