Season 4, Episode 143 : Clare Campbell

Will Richardson 00:05
Welcome to the Green Element Podcast, where we meet business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable, and in the process help you on your journey of sustainability. I'm your host Will Richardson. Today we are speaking with Clare Campbell, the founder and tartan designer of Prickly Thistle. Prickly Thistle are an independent ethical tartan brand based in the Scottish Highlands. Their brand is built around cultural restoration, artisan crafts revival, rural liberation and fiercely fighting for environmental and social justice. Clare, welcome.

Clare Campbell 00:43
Oh, thank you, Will, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Will Richardson 00:47
Thank you so much for joining us today. So I'd just like to start by asking how did you go from being a financial controlling consultant to setting up your own ethical tartan brand?

Clare Campbell 00:57
Yeah, that's a good question. I should maybe ask you, how did I do it? [laughs] I sometimes say - why on earth am I where I am? But I can tell you who I am. I've never felt prouder in terms of easy, you know, as a human being in terms of what I'm doing. But yeah, I was very, very fortunate, got some really great commercial experience and leaders in different sectors and different organizations as an accountant. And the transition that I've been seeing lately has nothing to do with the fact that tartan looks like a spreadsheet, you know, this, you know, it does. But it's that's not the reason that is definitely not the reason. It was both a personal moment for me and realization of actually what my children are a bit older, they were sort of eight, nine, I was in my mid 30s, things had happened in our in our personal lives, and just kind of just thought; What's it all about? And what do, you know, if life is so short, and I was, unfortunately, working at the time in oil and gas, and that really made me realise, you know what, Clare, this is not good. And I was very, very fortunate in terms of what we've been able to do with the kids, but I just wanted to give back. I wanted my kids to be super proud of Mummy because she did something for so many other people, other than we've been on our next holiday to a certain place. So just this realisation of, you know, what is fulfillment? And you very quickly become part of a bit of a rat race sometimes when you don't realise, you can get scooped up. And then yeah, tartan rebels, Highlander; finance hat on due diligence: oh, my God, we have no mills in this region anymore! What is that all about? How did I not know this? Just a passion for the fabric, the simpleness of the design, aesthetics, and then I went to see an accountant and he was like: "okay, how big is this to Scotland? And who's doing what?" It's just really, really sad to see how small it become. I went on a bit of a two, three-year mission of mercy [and] got to know everyone in the industry, completely sympathise, and have the most respect for what a lot of them have endured in many respects. But then you kind of take a new look at in the context of where we are today, 2021, and this whole commercialisation, this unconscious consumerism, this mass manufacturing, this huge disconnect where people with physical products that people don't know what it's made of, who made it, where it came from. They just know, it was on offer. Um, you know, and it was in the other color that I wanted. I think that's not everyone, but I think there was this huge disconnect. So, yeah, it was a whole, you know, popped off of decisions. And, yeah, I just took the leap and decided failure is nothing. You've just got to try so if it doesn't work out, then I can always say I tried so, yeah. So it was just kind of one of those moments I reached, and I wanted to invest in something.

Will Richardson 04:13
What does sustainability look like for you as Prickly Thistle?

Clare Campbell 04:17
Yeah, as a fabric producer, so sustainability, for me it's become you the whole fabric of the planet when you think of that, you know, as a statement. And then, of course, we're working within fabrics. It is iconic, it is the fabric of Scotland. And it's really thinking about tartan as a design that is symbolic of movements and challenges and courage and to stand up in battle and fight for what you believe in. So sustainability for me is absolutely understanding this whole, you know, this less is more [concept]. We've come I think, and this is probably from an accountant as well, come on such a kind of innovative path of destruction in many respects. You know, because it was to innovate, innovate, innovate, how do we make more? Quicker, faster? With industry 4.0 with less people, you then start looking at UN SDG goal 4.0. You know, we're not creating jobs anymore, we're getting these robots in. But sustainability is really about making less. It's really about creating jobs for people and making less. It's been really doing everything you absolutely can throughout your supply chain so that's where you source from, how you produce, we use green energy on-site, we compost on-site. It's what you share with your consumers, but it's also how you actively work with your consumer and how they deal with our over the lifetime of the product, you know, and then ultimately, the recovery, the recycling, the reuse of it. So I think I feel a huge responsibility for that complete circle. You know, I don't anything in that circle. But because I'm part of that circle, and the most sustainable thing I can do, the most responsible thing I can do is acknowledge that this, all of these things are hugely connected. And I need to make sure that I'm, you know, I'm doing my best to source correctly, but also inspire and share with consumers, the meaning of that so that we can be as sustainable as we can.

Will Richardson 06:16
I've read that your tartan is woven, unique cloths on century old legacy looms, which took two years to restore. Can you tell us a bit about the process and why you chose this method to create your products?

Clare Campbell 06:28
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm just thinking here. Sorry to interject. Can you hear the looms going at the moment? I'm going to just push the door over. Okay. I'm really sorry!

Will Richardson 06:45
You know, what we are, we are - you carry on, and I'm actually gonna do a bit of an [intersection] - you can see that we are talking to someone that works in a real life loom factory? [laughs]

Clare Campbell 07:00
A mill

Will Richardson 07:02
A loom mill. Yeah. And so I think that's good. I think it adds ambiance

Clare Campbell 07:07
I'm not sitting in a fancy office anywhere, I'm literally sitting in an upcycled Porter cabin that was used for a construction site, an upcycled, oil and gas container on site that we've decked out and turned into our pasture and and cutting room, we've used upcycle pallets for flooring, we also now have an additional upcycled six berth static caravan that we've repurposed and reused for more space. But our team obviously, with COVID, and social distancing, we're trying to create more pockets of space. But we're, we're very vulnerable. For me, it's just having worked in construction at some point in my previous career in a waste management facility, it's quite shocking at how much stuff would just be ripped out - and really amazing materials. They weren't 'end of life' and not be used. So we're very 'waste not want not'. I've watched minimum carbon mileage, how do we get these things sourced? And locally, create space, get super creative with it. So keeping it real, I'm sitting in this Poter cabin here with you this morning, Will, and the team are out there and the looms were just going a little bit too much. The door was left open, I thought, Oh, no, the listeners will hear me, which might be a good thing. But anyway, I've shut the door.

Will Richardson 08:23
What is it about the textile industry that motivated you to cement sustainable practices throughout your business?

Clare Campbell 08:31
There's just so many levels of potential, you know? Going back to this whole context of the fabric of the planet, you know, how do we mend that and how do we repair that? And I think, for me, it's, it's been a whole journey of enlightenment. I did not know what I know, three, four years ago, with regards to how damaging fashion of fabrics are globally, you know, from climate change, maritime and aviation together, fashion is far more damaging. We're seeing the fast fashion frenzy, which is, for me, I've been kind of trying to process it and trying to understand what compels people to do that, and all I can think of is, it's like an addiction, you know, getting high off buying something else where you're addicted to alcohol or something like that. But there's a real disconnect to the sustainable implications of that. So in Scotland, part of my big due diligence piece, and part of my real commitment to honour the integrity of Scottish cloth, so many people are buying this product thinking: 'this is 100% Scottish'. Well [laughs], let's just maybe step back a bit. It used to be and but with the whole Industrial Revolution, and you going back over many, many decades, the whole industry literally declined into very, very few mills left. Seven out of 10 people in Scotland were employed in textiles, it was massive, it was our thing. Now the supply chain is hanging on by a thread, and fair play to all of those who have stuck in there. It's been tough. We've had to compete on cost and some occasions, commoditise our clan system a little bit. And there was this whole lack of cultural appreciation or a provenance because of the labeling, the identification of iconically Scottish fabrics, no one really knew if it was ever made in Scotland, myself included. So sustainability, I think, is something that we did so fantastically well 200 years ago. We used our natural flora and fauna for dyes, we used our natural fibers, and plant and animal, we made it locally, we created garments to zero waste pattern design, and that's what we do with all of our products, everything is zero waste. I don't understand why you'd want to go and start cutting things and curves and wasting all this fabric on the floor for a garment that will only fit you if you stay that size for the rest of your life. I'm all about expanding with a beautiful kilt strap, and make everything super, you know, in life-time proof. But we did this 200 years ago, and it's a bit more difficult now that that whole supply chain slightly fractured. And that's one thing that I've realized. For me, it's a mission about bringing back this craft to the Highland region because there was no weaving in the Highland region, but be creative, and not compete with everybody else in the rest of the sector. For me, they do clan tartans, so be sustainable as a member of that industry, it's important to respect what they do. But we've realised, then, to really elevate our sustainability is that we need to do more again on natural fibers, on natural dyes, we've been working on that for two years with academics from Edinburgh University, and National Manufacturing Institute Scotland, with other government agencies such as Zero Waste Scotland Scotland. We are the only one in the country was actually doing a mask subscription, where we take back our masks, which are made from wool so they're 100% recyclable, they're reusable, and they've been tested with the Institute of Occupational Medicine. And we have been lobbying being activists, you mentioned that at the very opening there, we have been hounding the politicians, the Scottish Government, to tell us why, at this stage right now because a plastic pandemic of single-use masks or fashion masks that have no testing whatsoever as a health care product, quite often could be polyester as well - and there's no framework to really think about the green agenda, as well as the health crisis. So we're the only ones in the country who we're not going to look at this as a fashion opportunity. We looked at this to do the right thing, so we have this mass subscription, we recover the masks from our customers every three to six months, we are stockpiling wool waste. We know it's in our waste, if we want to go into the waste world, we know we can process that cleanly, we can actually create a value-added fiber from out the back of it. So we're the only one dealing with the waste mask and you know I'm with COP 26, and the green agenda coming. I was at local history site called Clootie Well, and we've got them across the country. The National picked up and it actually covered a story. So Clootie Well is where people used to go with a piece of biodegradable fabrics, when back in the day, that's all we had, thank God - polyester has been an absolute disaster as far as I'm concerned – and they would have these rags and as these rags start to roll over time, and the ailment would be alleviated from that individual [who tied the rag]. When I went there, the number of single use masks, the number of surgical plastic gloves, all tied to trees - it's literally a landfill site now full of plastic waste. So we're lobbying on that. so we've done that. That's really hopefully symbolic, our desire to always do the right thing and not the easy thing. And so going back to sustainability, we're here being a very small part of Scottish textiles manufacturing, which is weaving on these beautiful looms which do need people so that's – tick - jobs. That's what it was all about. And we're powered from green energy. From day one, we pay much higher tariff to Scottish Southern Energy to use the energy produced from wind and water, so we run green energy. And we've been working on how we become a little bit more circular, how we influence our raw material sources. So we buy our yarns that are Scottish, spun, and dyed. I mean, we have a supply chain map on our website because I'm all about transparency. You know, maybe it's the auditor and me from the days gone by where you need to get that out there, gather the evidence, Clare, and prove to folk because I think it's sometimes really important that what you don't stand for really says what you do. And so, to have a supply chain up there, but we are importing far too much fibers, you know, we saw last summer, you know, kind of the first week of the crisis, you know, all of the wool that was sitting in sheds just rotting. You know, this all of our Scottish wool is really pretty much has two exceptions and some amazing knitters and things like that and jeans in Shetland. It's been a brawl for carpets, and it's like rock bottom commodity prices, farmers are just burning and burying fleece. I mean, it's biodegradable, it'll go back into the land. But it's a beautiful, natural waste product of having flocks. If we don't clip and trim them, we start to think about animal welfare by not doing that so we're not doing enough of that in Scotland and so we want to bring that back. And then you really look at the other side in the textiles recycling and this is where our mask integrity is really starting to accelerate that because we have no textile recycling in Scotland. We have more wherever we take, you know, any fabric and repurpose it. Textiles recycling, as far as I'm concerned, is not bailing it and shipping it to somebody else's doorstep. You know, that's not recycling. So yeah, sustainability; there's a huge amount of work to be done. I find that super exciting because it means you can make an impact. And it's trying to do that as a startup and respectfully share that with your consumers. respectfully share that with people within the industry, academics, politicians. Yeah, just keeping going.

Will Richardson 16:09
Do you think that having a financial background? And then also, I mean, let's face it, you're pushing water uphill to some degree by running a business, the way that you're running because you are going against the grain. It is hard what you're doing. Do you think that adds benefit? Because at the end of the day, you actually understand the bottom line so, therefore, you know what will make you bankrupt and what won't because you hear about a lot of small businesses going bankrupt or not ending well, because of the finances.

Clare Campbell 16:44
Yeah. No, I mean, we have to be financially sustainable. And I work to an ethical margin. It's something I wish to go back to ICAS eventually, one day, who trained me as a chartered accountant and say, can you teach all your students about ethical margin? I know there's gross margin, a net margin, but let's talk about the ethics of it. And picking through the cost of the P&L in terms of supply chain and carbon, I think that would be amazing if accountants could start doing that. It's really, really important and for me, it's about taking is taking the right path, not the easy path. And yeah, daily, you know, when I'll say to everybody else involved in the business, there's a million things I'm quite sure you can just go and say: "right, that's revenue raiser, let's do it, we can do 1000, we can do a million, we can do this, we can do that". There is all of that. But I, personally, can't do that. Because I feel like when I know something, like, for example, this issue with regards to not having a framework for reusable and recyclable masks in this country, we're creating a massive waste problem. We're talking about green recovery, we put 10 p on plastic bags. What on earth are we doing? When we've done, we created a solution, and we've got the whole industry ready to go behind it. So because I know that, and I still do not have an answer, because a link to the NHS procurement site for supplying medical masks from one minister is not quite answering my question. So I'm terrible, too, I really want to take something to the end of the line. So I sacrifice because - you're one person with 120 hours in the day, but for me - that is the right thing. You know, I know what I know. Silence is saying that I think that is okay, when it's not okay. But I do have to remember, I've got a team here, I'm wholly responsible for, for them, their safety, their security and their wellbeing. They have families, they have commitments, so it's difficult because you're torn, you have to be financially sustainable, but then it's not just seeing [that]. we're in the final stages on being B corp approved hopefully. So I mean, for me, it's really important that I do put people and the planet first before profit. Profit still has to be there to stay, to stay in existence. And so yeah, there's times don't get me wrong, where you go: "Oh, my gosh, right. What am I going to do?" But I hopefully with my background, it allows me to see these things in advance and not past the point of, right - we've lost it. So it runs close, but it's based on integrity principles.

Will Richardson 19:20
I think you'll fly through the B Corp certification. We're one of the first B corps in the UK and so I know the certification well having gone through it three times now. But yeah, I didn't want to bring up B corp because I don't think it's right to be pushing everyone down that path. I just find interesting that you've just brought it up. I'd love to talk to you about ethical margin. You just brought it up. So what do you mean by ethical margin?

Clare Campbell 19:46
Yeah, I mean, ethical margin first and foremost is transparance. I am now toying with how much we've got a whole file - my audit file, if you like - of evidence of activism and what we've been doing, and the fact that we've got nothing to hide whatsoever. By leading by example, by what we share publicly and what we're trying to encourage, potentially in the future for legal transparency change, and especially when you're claiming to be of a certain philosophy, you know [about] greenwashing, whether you're getting support from the government in the form of a grant, what are you doing with that? I think there needs to be a whole level of accountability and transparency for businesses.

Will Richardson 20:29
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Clare Campbell 20:30
So it's leading by example. And so I'm calculating and plotting as my Rebel way of life, to how we can actually go and do all this, because it's all about, it's walking the walk, as opposed to just talking. And so ethical margin is really about transparency. For me, it's challenging people's perception, so this is consumers about fair pricing or complete disconnect, possibly around the fact that a T shirt, being cheaper than a cup of coffee is seriously wrong. Seriously, seriously, wrong. It's not a bargin when you buy five but people don't know [why]. And I thought that [it was okay] five years ago, I was there with the kids and going "oh, we'll buy this one, we'll get that one for Charlie and get that one for Paul" and you know, and it was just nuts. And we didn't need them, they wore them two or three times, and then six months later than into the next size. So it's consumers and so ethical margin is about understanding what your funding, ethical margin in terms of reporting the transparency, ethical margin in terms of how our government, and we live in a country where they're really supportive of stimulating creative thinkers, unreal world leaders, to make the world a better place. But how we do that and who we fund with taxpayers money, I have to question that many, much of that. And I think that the measures and the programs in place through all the various agencies, ethical margin for me, every time I've kind of gone and spoken to all these people, and it's been interesting as an accountant to come in at startup level, usually, you know, you're sitting there have a conversation in the bank about [a] five year projection for investment in a 10 million hydro scheme or something. But I'm sitting here as a little startup and they're saying: "you're doing with 100 year old looms?" They just looked at me like I was absolutely nuts. "What on earth are you doing? You're an accountant", you know, and it's like, everybody's leaving this sector. But when I was presented with how they analyzed. They are all these - that's their job - but the fact that they were only focused on turnover and job creation, there was no questions over: what is your supply chain? Where are you buying your products from? How much of that is actually within, sustainable, ethical, if it's a Scottish product, how much of that is actually got integrity, how much of it is a Scottish supply chain? There was no drill down of the P&L, it was literally the vanity of a turnover, and the number of jobs created. That frustrated me because when you were trying to build a sustainable company, it's going to be a bit slower. That really frustrated me, because I felt that was so unfair to so many other people out there trying to do something that's really important and they're up against this siloed way of thinking. Then you go to the likes of the world of accountancy, how do we report on that? I mean, I know we've got different accounting policies about sustainability and stuff with that coming through, but I think I would love to see a P&L based on carbon, I'd love to see a P&L really bring that into the financial reporting of these big corporates, that actually becomes part of that International Accounting Standards and audit arena.

Will Richardson 23:52
This is, this is really exciting. I actually really want to take this kind of putting my advice commerce offline, because of what we do, because we're a carbon reporting organisation, and helping organisations be more sustainable. I wonder if you and I could hatch a plan around it and use both of our companies as a case study? Because I'm totally with you on absolutely, all of that and what's been really interesting about doing this podcast for so many years, and interviewing organisations like yourself, is there is a very common theme and it is: people grow slowly because they are wanting to do the right thing. They're not running into it. You know, I've been around for 20 years and we're now on the scale up, you know. 20 years later, we're on the scale up because I've got everything in the right place. I feel really happy with where we are and it's so common, that. It's really, really interesting. And so what is it that you are doing that's different to other competitors from a sustainable point of view?

Clare Campbell 25:06
Gosh, I mean from from competitors when you say competitors, who are we talking about? We're talking about other textiles brands or other tartan brands?

Will Richardson 25:16
I was thinking tartan makers, tartan brands but maybe if you want to widen it out?

Clare Campbell 25:22
Yeah. I mean because one I mean one brand that we do aspire to and we do - I'm personally - l love his own journey it’s Yvon Chouinard the founder of Patagonia you know, I just think that's incredible what he's done. So I get torn between talking about tartan and fashion and people sometimes going a bit Royal Mile or a bit - so basically Stewarts you know, and that's all there and I respect that. So, um, so yeah, and in terms of what makes us different? Well, I suppose in the sense that we are and for most, there's one or two other Mills out there, certainly using in the older looms, but I think our personality, our identity we're hopefully trying to be more transparent about what we're doing, where we are challenging way more, and in terms of getting back to that holy Scottish product. I've just got a huge amount respect for everyone in the industry. So I don't see them as competitors because I try not to do the same thing as they do, you know what I mean? So I respect their journey, I respect their models, I respect where they are, but I see them as not direct competition because we're trying to be complimentary to what they're doing and trying to help grow and in many respects get the industry back to where it was 200 years ago with a bit more advancement in terms of health and safety, I suppose in some respects. So yeah, that’s been a bit of a rubbish cop out of it. But we tried to be so different and because the way - I mean, if you look at our fabrics, [if] you look at our designs, you look what we're creating, they are I think are quite aesthetically different in some respects and our messaging on our voice and our personality I think is maybe slightly different to other textiles [and] tartan mills. I've just got a huge amount respect for them. So I tried to be you know, they’re apples, I’m a pear. I think we're different.

Will Richardson 27:24
And what is it that you - I mean, you've actually touched upon this through the discussion with you, the environmental management side of the of your organisation, do carbon footprint?

Clare Campbell 27:39
No, absolutely. I mean, we have got a long list of things you want to do Will, and we have not done our carbon calculations yet. I have gone by purely - like with the masks when I you know, contact them week one of lockdown said we may want to mask up folks in the community, you know, that's maybe where it's spreading - I ran on instinct. Being an accountant trained to logically plan and do things, I still use my gut instinct for many things so if it seems like actually that is the best possible thing you can do right now, then without having to go [and] prove it as such, I do want to prove things, I throw in the context of my startup scenario and go I we can't pay consultants to go and do you know, we don't have a senior management team where I can deploy to my QA JC department or I can deploy to my marketing department. It literally was me for the first couple of years between you know, working in the office, doing the finance, doing the marketing, cleaning the loom the weekends, get my mum in to help me, trying to bribe my daughter who's now fourteen: "come on, help mommy do this", "oh Mum, it's so boring at the mill". So you don't have that luxury, but it does keep you super connected to your business and I think for me, all of those decisions were gut instinct based and for me. From our toilet paper we source our toilet roll from Who Gives a Crap, a great company where we use recycled toilet paper and the profits to various sanitary charities. So everybody here at the mill, say there's 12 of us, we're always looking at could we do this better? Could we get an alternative? We're obviously got a lot more cleaning materials now, but we sourced all the environmentally friendly multipurpose cleaners you get, we've got a whole range of composters on site because I used to work for the waste company and all their broken bins and we've got them all laid out on our waste wheel goes in there with grass cuttings, and we're trying to create a room compost and see the green energy in our packaging. We put in a little recycle card and we encourage our customers to know exactly what to do with their packaging; they can reuse it, do a craft project with the kids. You know, it's biodegradable tissues, you know, all of these types of things. We have stuff on our website. So yeah, so we haven't carbon calculated it. But we look at a you know, even the tiniest thing, look out and go actually there is a better option. And things like - as an accountant many years ago, I will be saying - switch the lights off because this will reduce the electricity bill. Now I go: "we're burning energy, we don't need to guys, let's switch off'. So it's just for me kind of goes back to common sense, I would love to do it because I would be so excited to see how good we are hopefully. But yeah, that start up, you know -

Will Richardson 30:20
Yeah I get it. We're actually free to any turnover under 300,000. So -

Clare Campbell 30:27
Oh we will be talking offline, I would love to see how we could improve even more.

Will Richardson 30:34
And as our listeners know, I don't actually usually talk about our own business. But Sorry, sorry for doing that. I actually feel guilty for saying

Clare Campbell 30:42
No you ought to because it does help people, people are so keen to do it. And there could be little kind of holes in the bucket but just maybe it wasn't that obvious to them. And even going through the process I know will probably make them think I could do this better. So no, bad, right.

Will Richardson 30:57
Finally, greenwashing is a massive problem throughout the world and the textile industry is unfortunately affected by this too. What would you suggest to our listeners to look out for when purchasing textiles?

Clare Campbell 31:09
I talk about this on a daily basis, to be honest. I saw at Forbes or Vogue or somebody was talking about this new, sexy style digital QR codes that are going to tell you X, Y, Z on the labeling or whatever. And I think labels can say whatever they want, they're put on something and I think for me, as a consumer, because they hold all the power, governments will change things on a lag basis. People can change, can close down an industry or an organisation if they feel fundamentally they're doing something wrong tomorrow, because they just don't buy their stuff anymore. So for me, it's it's absolute transparency is going on their websites, it's looking at their socials, it's have they got their CSR policies, environmental policies or modern slavery policies. If they don't have any of this anywhere on their website, then you have to question: who's made it? What's it made of? And where is it made? If you can't get those three basic questions answered, then you have to question: what are you funding by buying that product? First of all, you need to go actually, do I need it? If you don't, then don't. You could just reuse and repurpose something in the wardrobe. But yeah, I mean, the labeling side - it frustrates me a little bit around that that because it's even like the Made in Scotland label are designed in Scotland label. And I think it's actually down to - it's not just putting a label on or wearing a T shirt saying I support X, Y Z - it's like that's like just talking not walking. A label is just talking. Walking has to be clear through the DNA of your business, which is clear on the benefits of social media, things like that now. I think, you know, I think that's where people should just actually hopefully spend a little bit of time on getting answers to those questions. Go on their social media channels, go onto Instagram, go onto Twitter, ask them, can you tell me where this is made? You know, can you tell me how I should recycle it? Ask ask ask - because I think at the end of the day, corporates - if they don't have customers anymore, they'll either go out or they will change.

Will Richardson 33:13
Clare, thank you so much for joining us today.

Clare Campbell 33:16
No, thank you. It's been fun.

Will Richardson 33:19
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