Season 3, Episode 109 : Brendon Rowen

Will - 00:04
Brendon, thank you so much for joining the green element podcast today, I am really excited about talking about your particular niche. And it's Cradle to Cradle. Your company is Cradle to Cradle design consultancy, which kind of says what you're in it in, as it were, can you tell us a bit more about please?

Brendon - 00:24
Cradle to circular design consultancy. The Cradle to Cradle methodology is based on really authentic and clearly communicated metrics in terms of developing sustainability strategies for any company. So, it's based on the premise of really deep-down design in terms of using the right materials for the right reasons at the right times with the right people. So when we're looking at product design, from a cradle to cradle perspective, we take into consideration the five, what we like to call hallmarks, which are material health material, reutilisation, renewable energy, water and soil stewardship, and social fairness. We take those elements, we then kind of distill them, particularly in the material health segment that we look at, materials down to the parts per million, so we really go down deep into the chemistry of what makes a product, what makes a healthy product. And once you define that, you can then say, Okay, great, we're looking at these materials, how we're going to circulate them. And then the energy used to make these things, do they come from renewables? And are we you know, what is our effluent? Like, is it good enough for human consumption, and how we're treating the people that are working with those products or manufacturing those things. So, when you're looking at the Cradle to Cradle system, it's, it's a multi-attribute approach, rather than just one siloed assessment tool.

Will - 02:14
Again, see, you brought in a few words and expressions that our listeners would be unfamiliar with, I wonder if you could give us an example of a piece of work that you've done.

Brendon - 02:31
So, there's a really simple project, actually, that is, is being developed, and the projects now been taken over to the US. It's a baby food macerator, which is made out of Cradle to Cradle certified polymers. Those polymers were designed by the Eastman company. And now Cradle to Cradle certified at the gold level. So that project is, is literally a tool that allows mothers to wean their babies by macerating food that I've prepared as parents already in us in a macerator. And that will, that will allow the actor to have their own parent made food rather than bought food. And you know how that they bought food creates a lot of waste product in terms of the packaging and so forth, that gets diverted to landfill, unfortunately. And once that, once that tool has been utilized, because we know babies have a weaning space of about 18 months, 18 months to three years, possibly up to three years, we take that product, and then recirculate that on a platform, which invites other mothers to then swap and change and exchange those tools. By the end of that cycle of use is probably the tool itself is designed to be used 50,000 times so there's about that amount of cycling use within take their product back or the company takes the product back and re pelletizer that into another product or the same product. So that's it's true circular motivation.

Will - 04:30
When you said palatalized as in, they put it down to a mold as it were and then made into something else.

Brendon - 04:38
While it makes against making another it's called a wonder wean basically, and then the product is then for the used material gets washed, cleaned, and re palletized and remolded into the window in a game. So, you've got about a 98% retention on your value on your material's value.

Will - 05:01
And would you end up with? Say, this one wonder wean is a kilogram, I'm just making out figures. Yeah. 1000 grams, then would you meet? Would you when you read palletize it? Would you get 1000 grams? Or would do you lose stuff?

Brendon - 05:20
Yes. Yeah, you would slightly degrade down to, as I said about 90-98% of the full value of that product. So, there's a 2% loss, which is actually not bad. If you think about the reclamation of ruin value, you know, I mean, yeah. And that's quite a, it's quite a definitive difference. A lot of products that we, you know, any plastic product that we get out there, most people just throw that away. So if you're retaining the value of that thing, that creates a different way of looking at how to how to manage a business model, because then your business model depends on people being responsible for the materials, you know. And as a customer, you want to know, when you're buying something, you want to know that that that company that you've bought this thing from, has taken those things into consideration and giving you an easy route to abide by those strategies.

Will - 06:18
And it's, that there's a lot of talk. And I know, we all work in circles. So maybe it's a lot of talk on my LinkedIn. And but there's a lot of talk about plastic, and I think probably is in my circles, and I'm putting inverted commas up because I did a podcast with a guy about plastics. And there's a lot of people that are saying, plastics aren't bad. It's what we do with plastics. That's the bad thing. And what how we deal with plastics. Does that fit with? I mean, it sounds like it fits with what you're doing. And I've been told not to lead people in things someone should have shouldn't have said that.

Brendon - 07:02
It's okay. You could say whatever you like. It's very good in terms of strategy. And whoever that person was that mentioned that I'll say to that, is right on the money, you know, what I've, in fact, I have an article on LinkedIn that states plastic is not the problem. And the article goes to, to explain the fact that, you know, plastic is actually a great material, it's if it's utilized properly. We don't utilize it, then, and we throw it away, and then it becomes a problem. So, our custodianship of the material, that is a question. It's not the material, it's just an inert bunch of chemistry, you know, the periodic table, you know, so for us to be custodians of the things that we make is the trick. And that, you know, that includes everything beyond plastic.

Will - 07:54
It's the 98%, you know, that what you just said, kind of epitomizes that, doesn't it? Because quite a lot of stuff just goes to landfill when it's plastic, and it just shouldn't, it doesn't make sense. If you can do, you can put something together and reuse it or use the energy from it. And I believe that's almost 100%. So, you can almost convert it back to 100% energy.

Brendon - 08:23
Yeah, I kind of agree with you and also disagree with you. Because ultimately, I don't think that plastic was ever meant to be a fuel per se.

Will - 08:34
I mean, yeah, I'm not saying I'm not honestly saying that you should be doing that. Just minor reiterating that it's actually incredibly valuable and one earth that we're doing putting into landfills.

Brendon - 08:46
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, this is the trick with what now, you know, people, according to circular economy or materials revolution, is the fact that we need to retain the value of things we make. So you know, if you're looking at buildings, interiors, banks, for example, utilizing Cradle to Cradle certified products in a construction project, for example, is very wise, because you now have probably some of the highest quality materials in that structure, which then lend themselves to obviously now that they have RF IDs and QR codes and all these identifiers. And there's a full database of all of the materials. That database is now right, do you have a library of these really quality, high-quality materials, you know, where everything is, you know, how long it's been there for. And you can identify that data then becomes a tool for futures traders, to trade up the value of that material down the line in 30 or 40 years’ time because that building was built to deconstruct and it can then be deconstructed and reconstructed. You know down the line, wow, it becomes a value chain asset rather than, rather than something that gets demolished after 50 years, as we've seen a lot of in the last 10 years, London's been kind of rebuilt and being re redesigned, you know, and a lot of buildings are being taken out of that mix in a way that, you know, why are we not retaining the bricks and mortar, all of these things that people 50 years ago or 100 years ago, built, you know, it's, it's insane. So, it's very important to make sure that we have a value chain attached to everything we make, you know, and not to drive the cost up at all, it's actually to keep costs at a minimum, and deliver value to the people that are purchasing these things.

Will - 10:51
I've never thought about it like that before, with regards to buildings, and putting the technology in to understand exactly what's in that building, its own is just opens up so much to what we waste. Like, immediately you realize how much we waste? And how important what you do is for society? And it's because it should be for everything, shouldn't it? We should be understanding? Absolutely. Everything we do, and understand what we've got for, you know, what we're using and how we're using it. So, therefore, almost, right, you're mining that you're taking that out of the ground? Where is that going? Where's it going to? and tracking that? And so, we have complete control over what we're taking out from the ground?

Brendon - 11:54
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we're working with it with a company here in the UK, and over in Italy, on May Korea, you know, the stone masonry industry is people, you know, there's all this judgment going around where you guys shouldn't be taking rocks and stones out of it. But that's what we built with, you know, so the responsible way of approaching it is to do proper environmental impact assessments that take on all of those metrics, rather than just the carbon or just the water, or just the energy. It's, it's about taking all of those metrics, and replenishing land and the soil and environment. Once you're finished with that space, you know, if there's a company in Italy, that is a quarry company that regenerates and makes beautiful dams and public spaces after their core is being utilized. So, you know, there's a social fairness aspect of, you know, these towns and these villages that are built around the coring industry, that, you know, they've, they've been there for hundreds of years. And now, the quarry companies themselves are giving back to that community and saying, Well, you know, now that we've built all these houses, and paving, and so forth, around the world, to be honest, here's a beautiful, natural environment, Japanese garden, to go and walk around it, you know. So it's also about that, that forethought of what is next here, you know, and the cradle, we would definitely define that what is next question? every step of the way, you know, it's like, right, I'm going to go and buy this thing. What's next with the packaging? I'm going to buy my, you know, my broccoli, expecting some plastic? Are we going to unwrap that and just chuck it in the bin? Or are we going to go back to the store and say, I don't want to have plastic around my vegetables? Or is this plastic conversation is about literally about who takes responsibility for what? And that's interesting, that's an interesting bend, if you wish.

Will - 14:05
Yeah. I mean, if you were to think about your ideal listener, on our podcast, to give them advice. Who would that listener be? And what would that advice be?

Brendon - 14:22
Well, the world is full of wonderful people. So, I couldn't pick one particular person out. But I guess it would be all manufacturers, people are making things. And the, the advice or the or the, the request, I suppose would be to, to dig deep into what is available in the toolbox that you're using. And does that define your sustainability strategy as a company you know, the toolbox that we offer, as the Cradle to Cradle toolbox has some really new and interesting ways of looking at systemic design and product design. So, I think it's valuable to, to investigate that. So my, my request or my, you know, my, my question there would be, have you thought everything through, you know, can you think, that little extra step further, like what is next? Try something new. That's probably the thing I'd walk away. Yeah.

Will - 15:34
Absolutely thinking about the whole journey of that material, isn't it?

Brendon - 15:41
Absolutely

Will - 15:43
And we know, we don't even come close to it. It's really sad. If you actually think about where we are and what we're doing. It's actually really sad. I mean, we jumped up and down for joy. Five years ago, when we had that scheme that made anyone selling electrical items, they had to bring them back to the and what was, I think what was even more sad about that? Was those shops and retail centers, told everyone how good they were, because they were, they were allowing people to bring back the electrical items, even though it was legislation, and they've been told to do it, but because they knew that most people didn't know they had to do it. They were telling people how good they were. Yeah.

Brendon - 16:31
You know, and this might, this might be slightly contrary to the way many people, many people think. But I think the celebration of mediocrity in that situation is appalling. You know, we need to celebrate championing things, you know, that the companies themselves should take responsibility for those materials, you know, it's not my responsibility as a consumer to, to be custodians of it. I want to eat the broccoli, I don't want the plastic bag, you know, I want to use the flour that's in the bag. I don't need to have the bag. So, this packaging question is, is, is a really interesting place for innovation, I think. And that's really where credit comes into its own as we look at the innovation opportunities, and then deliver on that sustainably authentically sustainably. And I think, yes, that example of people taking their electricity, electrical units back to the shops, where they bought them from if they were damaged, or whatever the case may be. It doesn't, it doesn't do anything. It just makes more work for other people, you know. And I'd like to cite the project that Philips was engaged with what he's engaged within Schiphol Airport. They leased light, they own the actual components, because they're responsible for that. So, if I go to them as a customer, like Schiphol Airport, at least illumine will lease X amount of Leuven over a period of 15 years for example. The lease model works in many situations, in some situations it doesn't. But yes, you're right we need to absolutely think out of the box and challenge I think challenge mediocrity you know, it's we need to do that.

Will - 18:28
We have a university that does that went down the Phillips route is a fascinating way of doing things isn't it to have someone else that's in charge of all your lighting and managing it. But it works. It works actually very well for them. And they and I would definitely to anyone listening, look at that model and look at the way that that model sets within your organization because if it's a bigger organization, it works really well.

Brendon - 18:58
Absolutely. And you know, you've got carpeting as a lease model carpet tiles with Shaw and desso and target particularly short contract they will contract you a carpet this year, you'll have a great design and to three years down the line, you can replace that as part of your lease model. So, in perpetuity, you have soft walk on a floor, you don't need the materials, if that makes sense. It's a, it's a new way of aligning the way that we value things you know; I value a soft walk on the floor and nice colors to walk on. I don't need the glue and the hat and the Hessian and the size on the wall and all those things go into making I don't need that. And I mean I said value assessment that we need to look at, I think.

Will - 19:47
Yeah, and I think people are asking more and more questions, aren't they? We had a podcast guest on a year ago now possibly longer Tara button from by me once or by at once. Do you know?

Brendon - 20:03
We've met on LinkedIn? We've had a couple of conversations and emails. Yes, I know, Tara.

Will - 20:07
And it's people like, it's people like, and organizations like that, that are questioning what we're using and how we're using it. And it's just great that those conversations are being had. But how do we do it? More? Because let's be frank, we've been having these conversations for quite a few years now. And had wonderful conversations, that they are conversations.

Brendon - 20:36
Yeah, exactly. And this is it? You know, I think, like you said, we've had the conversations, I think the point to implement, what we're talking about is, as long gone, we just need to keep doing that. And yes, of course, conversations are important. And it's valuable to make introductions to new things and new ideas. But ultimately, we need to apply the knowledge and the expertise from those conversations and deliver the value to you know, both ecologically and environmentally. And economically, you know, ultimately those, those metrics are going to be the drivers that make a difference. So if I can prove to you that, you know, this wonder wean tool, for example, this baby feeding tool, could a save lives in Africa, because the mortality rate of young disenfranchised folk in Africa is quite high, you know, the mortality rate has gone high because of choking. Now, if you take wonder wean, and you deliver that into that environment, those children, you're going to have a lot more surviving, right? You really get their food doubted, it's mushy sort of consistency, but also in their light. That will eliminate 1.6 billion plastic sachets from the food sachets, baby food sachets that goes to landfill every year. So, you know, you've got to look at the mitigating factors of investing in that kind of, of strategy. It may cost a little bit more upfront, but always, always ask, what's the cost of not doing it? You know?

Will - 22:24
Yeah. Yeah. And when a company, for example, I wonder wean look at the mitigation of products with when it looks at their lifecycle.

Brendon - 22:40
Sorry, sorry, repeat that, again.

Will - 22:43
Would accompany and I'm just what I'm trying to do is put myself in a listener’s feet. I'm just thinking, well, I've got a product. I understand now what to do, and I understand what to how to do it. But you've just brought in another thing of, actually, you're mitigating the use of sachets, food sachets. So, would is that a normal, best practice to bring that mitigation into that Cradle to Cradle? Because I guess it emphasizes the argument for doing it in the first place?

Brendon - 23:18
Yeah, I mean, necklace. I think one of the most critical things was 'a' to make it easy for mums and dads, and 'b' to stop pollution. You know, the company director addressed a lot of different issues. But those are the two main issues that we discovered, were a good motivator to create the business. And it's a startup, but it's, you know, it's, it's still getting to that point of mass production and mass market, but it's, yeah, the reality is that those kinds of things are what the Cradle to Cradle methodology uncover, you know, because of the deep level of assessment that these kinds of companies go into, for their business model. It's not only just for the material health or for the energy use, or their social fitness, it's the whole business model. So, it is a multi-attribute approach.

Will - 24:15
And as you know, we do a lot of carbon footprinting, it's green element, it is carbon footprinting, something that's brought into the credits upgrade methodology.

Brendon - 24:27
It is in many respects, that's obviously just one aspect of it. Right. So is added carbon is sequestration. There's all of those discussions around what happens with carbon. And, you know, contrary to currently, what's been this net-zero carbon government strategy I'm not, I'm not a fan. You know, this net carbon needs to be you need to have carbon in the ground. That's what you need to do. That's where it needs to go. doesn't need to be in the air, it doesn't need to be in anything it needs to be in the ground. If it's going to be in a jersey or in a car or in a phone or in something, make sure that it's able to get back to the earth. That's the most important thing. The net-zero concept to me is Yeah, doesn't, I understand that the, the pseudo logic about it, but it's in reality, if you're looking at the environment and how to how to address carbon as an element on the periodic table, I would say, get it back in the ground. I mean, it's already in the ground. You know, that's reality.

Will - 25:44
It is bonkers, the terminology, and the wording that's now currently being used around carbon. And yeah, we talked about as a team, it doesn't make sense at all. It just is bonkers. And academics.

Brendon - 26:02
Yeah, sorry to speak over you today. Will, but the reality is I'm carbon, you know, there's a percentage me and it's carbon, your carbon, the warlocks mind, is this common? It's everywhere. And if we, if we are NetZero, if that's our goal, then we all just need to die, you know, because that's it, it's, we need to create humans. It's like, well, that's our goal. Okay, brilliant, just, you know, being slightly facetious. But I think we've got to really look at the wording and lifecycle analysis, everybody uses lifecycle analysis. But we like to use cycle analysis as an identifier, because, you know, this water bottle is not living, it has a use cycle, but it does not. So, yeah, you know, and it's not about wanting to correct anybody or anything like that, or being, as you say, facetious. It's just about getting the perspective of what is the right way to look at this thing, you know, and you ology and this is the other side of the Cradle to Cradle methodology is that there is language in there that is different to the mainstream. And that's what I'm saying we've got a challenge that mediocrity and challenge the norm as it were, and now that we've got almost 8000 credit, square certified products out there in the world, people are starting to wake up and realize that actually there is, there's something to this crazy stuff, you know,

Will - 27:40
I'm realizing that we should definitely change some of the wording on our website now. And so, I will talk to the team about that.

27:50
Because we fall into the LCA category.

Brendon - 27:53
Yeah. But also, in terms of, you know, I really, we joke about it, and it is actually quite funny because, you know, the stuff we assess is not living. So why would we create that as an LCA?

Will - 28:08
Yeah, no, it makes complete sense. makes complete sense. To me, yeah. It's a bit of a no brainer. And if you think about it, and as an organization, I am sure you practice what you preach. With regards to sustainability in the environment. I mean, is there any advice that you can offer? As, because as an organization?

Brendon - 28:38
Yeah. I think for all intents and purposes, you know, we're a smallish organization, most of us are on bicycles and or motorbikes. I've yet to order and purchase my Tesla, but as a, as a practical day to day application of what we, we, I say develop as a consultancy. I think the key element for us is to be authentic to our business model. So, you know, the authenticity of the littlest things, you know, and this, it all, all the things that we know, start at home, you know, so it is about separating your waist and going that extra mile down to the buffalo bits and doing those little things that we seem to be, you know, sort of mundane, but when we challenge those things within ourselves, it's easier to do that with another company or with an organization or with another person, because you've done it yourself, you know, so in all of my presentations, that the last slide is make it your own. So, however, you feel is your conscience knows what, you know, what's right in terms of your behavior, you know, and my company slogan is design with a conscience. Because that, ultimately is we know what's right and wrong. We know that we need to design these things better we need, we need all of these elements to come together and then align with our conscience ultimately, you know. So I guess the answer to your question is that the advice would be to align with your company, conscience, and if that doesn't align with your integrity, change that metric change the vision, if you wish of the company, you know.

Will - 30:43
That's interesting. Thank you. It's been fascinating talking to you. And learning more, and I think it is, it's a mind shift, isn't it? It's a mindset. And it's thinking about what we buy. It's thinking about how we design, and it's thinking about, actually, that reminds me of a conversation I had earlier on about a brand design agency that are looking to bring a sustainability consultant in house. It actually fits in with exactly what we're talking about today doesn't it? And I'm bringing if they're rebranding to bring that whole lifecycle. Not lifecycle.

Brendon - 31:28
I know what you mean (laughs).

Will - 31:33
I yeah, but bringing it bringing that methodology into everything that we do and how we do it.

Brendon - 31:41
I think it's a very important element for new brands, and what even all brands coming to coming up, you know, realigning their, their comms strategy in terms of the authenticity, you know, how eco are they, how sustainable are they? And, and measuring up to that, and if they're, you know, if a bad agency has a client that isn't aligning with certain values, people like us can come in and say, Hey, guys, we've got some options here that you could look at, you know, how about this kind of packaging, or that kind of logistics plan or, you know, there's, there's ways that you can start aligning with a really good messaging, you know, and we've all I've worked in advertising off my life, and, you know, it's all about selling the stuff. But is the stuff sellable? And that's the reality, when now, youngsters are looking at products, the first thing that they look at is, okay, how ecofriendly is they want to identify with those values. So, if, you know, if a brand agency is not delivering that to the client, or the client is not delivering that to the brand agency, that communication isn't an inauthentic path of their sustainable messaging. So, it makes sense to align with that really, really well. You know,

Will - 33:04
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you.