Season 5, Episode 202 : ANTHROPY25: Paul Nowak – Trade Unions Are Essential To A Just Transition

[00:00:00] if we're gonna spend taxpayers money, we're gonna spend it in a way that delivers public services effectively, but delivers it. Sustainably. Uh, and we've got the members there. We've got 4 million trade union members working in public services who could put their shoulders to the wheel.
So I think there's, lots of levers we can pull in public
services
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: Welcome to the final episode of our py. Sustainability solved special, and we had a bit of a coup while we were recording down at, uh, the evening project. We interviewed Paul Novak, the General Secretary of the TUCI mean, he's quite a big fish, and there were a, actually a lot of big fishes down there, and Paul very graciously agreed to come and be interviewed by us in a rainforest.
It was, it was a good chat, wasn't it?
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: I really, really enjoy talking to him because people are going to be such a big part of this just transition. And I think the TUC just transition almost. They, they align with each other because he's thinking about the workers and he's thinking about the people that are going to be a [00:01:00] part of this, um, just transition to a more sustainable world.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: I mean, Paul represents 48 unions, five and a half million workers from every sector across the country. And I suppose his point, I. Was that unless you take them with you, you aren't gonna have any kind of transition. So, and I think it's, it's a theme that's come up actually quite a lot in the, the interviews we've done over the last couple of years is actually how do you manage moving a business's structure and bring the people involved in that business with you?
And I mean, he felt very confident that it was actually the work, the people, employees of these con companies would actually be a big part of the solution.
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: Yeah. Training came up a lot with him and, the skill sets that are needed and in order to be able to move into different sectors or to move a business or an organization into a different, um, route.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: And while this is the last of the five episodes we're putting out from the event at the moment, we actually did about 30 [00:02:00] interviews that.
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: 38. I think I counted them up the other day. Yeah.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: I went surfing for a few of them, but there was certainly a lot done. Um,
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: You didn't go surfing for that
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: no, I missed a, a
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: Only about, only about 20.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: yeah, about three or four, but thank you.
Um, I. And so we're gonna put those out in a different way. We're still working out how to do that, but we do have a a little extra, extra special thing, which was the keynote speech of the speech of the event by Kemi Badenoch, which we're also gonna be putting out in entirety, which was interesting. And in fact, the questions and answers afterwards almost more.
Interesting. So that's also coming. Sit back and enjoy this and obviously get in touch with us podcast@sustainabilitysolve.org and you can leave a comment on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. Thanks very much and enjoy.
I'm Paul Novak, I'm the general secretary of the TUC.
So that's the Trade Union Congress. That's right. And we represent 48 unions, just short of five and a half million workers in [00:03:00] every single sector of the economy. You could think about everybody from professional footballers to bus drivers to people working in care homes, people working in car plants.
Think of a, think of a job, and there's a TC Union out there for your listeners. Brilliant, brilliant.
And before we dive in, what's one thing about sustainability that energizes you right now? Uh, what what energizes me is that I think we've got a real opportunity to sort of build a new industrial future in this, in, in this country.
And sustainability should be a key driver for that. So I want a vibrant. Automotive industry, steel industry, chemicals industry, as well as vibrant public services and all the rest of it. And I actually think the push towards net zero, um, decarbonized non economy gives us an opportunity, challenges without doubt, but an opportunity there as well.
Brilliant. And do you think that that that change that is inherent in that in the decarbonization agenda is actually gonna lead to potentially better outcomes for your members or it it could do if it's managed properly? I think that's a key thing, Charlie, I mean, I grew up in me side in the eighties and nineties and saw what happened when you get industrial change.
Wrong, you know, people losing their [00:04:00] jobs, but, you know, whole communities effectively out of work for decades had an impact, um, uh, in part of Liverpool and Birkenhead, which is where I, I grew up. I think with the right sort of support from governments, commitment from employers, you know, it's about securing good quality, uh, employment in the long term for, for millions of working people.
But that won't happen by accident. We've gotta make it happen. Tony Juniper's here today talking about fairness, being at the very heart of the transition to sustainability. Is that something, does that chime with you?
It absolutely does. Chime with me and, you know, quite often, I mean, I, I sit in lots of conversations with policy makers and politicians and people Wang, on about a just transition how we're gonna make it fair.
And don't worry, in five years time we'll have jobs in renewables or whatever it might be. If you are working in oil and gas at the moment. You know, in Aberdeen or in offshore on one of those rigs, you don't want warm words about what's gonna happen in the future. You want that concrete plan about, well, what does this mean for me, my job, my community, my family going forward?
And I think people have got the right to have those, to be around the table, to be involved in that conversation and to shape their own future. I. Hmm. [00:05:00] The example you've just given is actually an interesting example 'cause it is really happening. You are seeing so many, I'm, I actually live up in Scotland now.
Yeah. And I'm seeing so many people from the oil and gas industry transitioning over because there's so much renewable energy going on up there. Yeah. But, but, but they are transitioning over, but not enough of them and not enough good quality jobs. So one thing I'd say about. Offshore wind. I mean, we've got the se second biggest, pipeline is the wrong word, but pipeline of offshore wind projects after China in the uk.
And we were told that that would create and support tens of thousands of good quality jobs. Actually, it's been in the low thousands. Okay. And part of the problem is that what we're doing is we're importing rigs from Southeast Asia or Scandinavia, wherever it might be. I think you, you've got responsibilities to say, we're going to use that taxpayer investment.
How are we doing it in a way that sup supports good quality jobs in UK supply chains and, you know, we, we are now starting to build relationships with some of those new renewable companies. Um, but it's taken time and we had big concerns about things like safety in the offshore, um, uh, uh, wind sector in particular, [00:06:00] but, but actually sort of.
Thinking about capturing the benefits of UK supply chains, I think is really important and it gives people confidence that you are in their corner and fighting for them. So what would you say is one of the, the big or the biggest sustainability challenge problem facing both businesses and their, therefore your members today?
I, I mean, it really varies from sector to sector. And I say we've got people working at the sharp end and oil and gas, but also in steel and chemicals where the cost of energy is, I mean, it's part of the reason why we're struggling to compete against, you know, sort of comparative countries in Europe.
Through to people working in the NHS, I mean, the NHS is a huge emitter of, of greenhouse gases. So, you know, there's big challenges in different sectors. For me, I, I think the big challenge is, is really about giving people some control over it and, and getting to net zero in the right way. I mean, you can get to net zero by de-industrialized in our eco uh, economy, saying that we don't do steel anymore, we import it from China.
That to me is not off offshoring of carbon emissions. Exactly. Game numbers. On, on the, on the one hand that, that seems fine, but actually that, I mean, particularly if you look at the volatile world we're [00:07:00] living in at the moment, who knows what's gonna happen to tariffs in aluminum and steel and anything else.
I think you've got real responsibility to make sure that we've still got an industrial base in this country in 10 or 20 years time, but an industrial base that's, you know, compliments our net zero objectives. They've just, they've. Haven't they? Just talking about the steel industry. Um, they have just worked out how to make steel from renewable sources.
I know Sweden has done it and I think we're doing it as well in the uk. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the government's put, put aside two and a half billion pound to support a steel strategy and brought that forward in light of what brilliant happening. Um, but it, it links across to other things as well. So I mean, electric arc furnaces are part of the solution.
Not all types of steel can be produced that way. Carbon capture and storage. I know there's a lot of skepticism about there about is this. Proven technology or not, but I mean, if you want an industrial base in the future, CCSI think has gotta be part of that, that, that, that mix. Um, and, and, and as I say, I mean, you know, if you look in, in South Wales, what's happened to, to Port Tolbert where the Blast furnace has closed down, you can understand why [00:08:00] people are skeptical about the green agenda.
And I tell you what, Nigel Farra is running around South Wales telling everybody the reason why yes, port Talbert is closed is because of, you know, ban's Net zero madness. Yes. Nothing to do with that whatsoever. So I think we got a. Win the popular argument in the heart of minds. Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's the danger.
If you don't have a just transition, then you, you have no transition at all because you get, you know, volt, you know, people pulling it back and, and backsliding and, and I tell you what, our members, whether they're working in energy incentive industries or public services, I mean, our members care about.
Net zero and climate change as well. I mean, they've got kids, they worry about the future. I mean, they're not just worried about their jobs, but obviously, you know, everyone does worry about their livelihoods and rightly so. And if you had to build on one sort of sustainability solution that you've seen, heard around that, will success successfully scale in the next sort of five years?
What, what are you sort of. What's your great hope? What's the great white hope here? Oh, I, I I may not be a big controversial, I'll throw into, so calm, capture and storage I think has gotta be, um, uh, part of the solution. New nuclear, I think is part of the solution now that not [00:09:00] all parts of the environmental movement like that.
No, I mean, I'm fine with it though. You say you, I, I think I Nuclear is so. Ridiculous. The fact they pushed it, pushed it, pushed it. They should have done it in the early two thousands. But, yeah. Well, and, and, and, and then Boris Johnson was gonna, Boris Johnson was gonna build eight new nuclear power stations.
I mean, I mean, I think they went the same way as the hospitals, but it, it, it, but it is one of those things, isn't it? Where on, on New Nuclear, I mean, I think there is a sort of a, this is an opportunity to think about the pipeline of skills, you know, going forward. I mean, it was crazy. I mean, Hinkley, I've been down to that site.
It's, it's fantastic. But it was Chinese money to support the French owned. State owned energy company to build a new British nuclear power station. I mean, that's not the way most other countries would do it. We've gotta get this sort of stuff right. And also to, to make use of the, kind of the technological know-how that we have like small scale reactors.
We're, we're really good at those. Yeah, absolutely. We're one of the few countries in the world. We are really good at that. Absolutely. I mean, and then don't get me started on Germany like. Because of Fukushima, they shut down their nuclear power stations. You don't have a geo, you don't have a fault line through your country.
What are you [00:10:00] doing? Yeah. Yeah. And that massively pushed up their, their, um, carbon emissions through coal, so well, they also buy from France now and, and big issues about energy security with bush and gas and all, all the rest stuff. So, and what mistakes, what other mistakes do you, do you think that the sustainability movement has made over the last sort of 20, 30 years that, that you, you know, you see and think that we've gotta do this better?
Uh, I, I think it is about how you get the workers at the sharp end that's here ar around the table. And so, like, little confession, I mean, 'cause that I, I spent a lot of time, don't worry, no one's listening. You fine. We'll keep it private. I spent a lot of time slagging off the last governments, uh, one of the things they did write at is they set up this thing called the Green Job Task Force.
So they brought together, there was unions, which is unusual for the conservatives, employers, education providers. And we were tasked with thinking about you. How are we gonna support and create the, the good green jobs of the future and mean quite hard fought report, um, uh, and launched it. I wouldn't say fanfare 'cause it's slightly over egging it, but it, it just died to death 'cause it became a victim of the, you know, the internal psychodrama and the Tory party about [00:11:00] are we doing the green stuff anymore or not.
But one of the key recommendations in that was that companies should be, large, companies should be required to. Draw up net zero plans in consultation with their own workforce. And I think starting those conversations about, oh, this, we are not gonna be making exhausts in five years time, so what are we gonna do?
And what will that mean for investments in the company, in skills in, you know, some people might move into different sectors, that's satisfying. But giving people that opportunity to shape it and plan it. And particularly for a lot of smaller employers who, who are in you. Sectors that frankly, if you are producing exhaust for internal combustion engines, you won't be doing it in 10 years time.
So supporting those small employers as well to think about how they transition. We also to understand how you can capture those structures that are, you know, viable, good businesses that need help and support transition to something. So one of the things we are doing now is we've got, uh, project workers working with unions in some of those, those sectors to think about.
Uh, signposting the employer towards where, where might you be able to get investment? Where might you be able to get advice? [00:12:00] Where, where are the opportunities in other parts of the automotive supply chain? If it isn't exhaust, then what else could you do? Maybe it's not in automotive, maybe it's in another sector, but you can transfer a lot of that knowledge across.
So, you know, in, in, in some ways that's really exciting. Yeah, but I think that's it's, it's still all small scale at moments and we need to do this stuff to scale, don't we? And we need to do it quickly. 'cause you know this, you know, it's no use 10 years time looking back and saying, oh, wouldn't it be great if we'd done next?
Yeah. If we were to significantly reduce climate emissions as a nation or globally, what would be the number one thing that you would suggest?
Oh, I mean, that's such a big, and, and I'm not an expert, I'm not an expert on this sort of stuff, but I mean, for, for me, I think looking at our public services and how we deliver public services would be one thing, which is not the most obvious thing, but you know, how, how you deliver services.
For example, I. Uh, do you have to bring everybody into a community, uh, into a hospital? Is the stuff that you can do to deliver healthcare in a way that's better for patients, but is also more sustainable? Yeah. I think there's a huge job there to think about the way that we deliver our services [00:13:00] that, that, that's really not touched on unison.
Our public sector unions, one of our public sector unions has done some really good work on this. And galvanizing the people that within your unions as well. Yeah, I would say it's probably, for me, that was one of the reasons why I was really keen to talk to you, because you are in such a. Unique and an amazing position where you've got so many people that look up to you and look up to, I won't go too far away,
you know what I'm getting at. Um, you are a group of people and there are lots of groups of people. Well, quite often that is amazing because it's such a part of the solution. And quite often they do trust our local union to, to help them, support them through this sort of stuff. And one of the things that we've.
We actually started under the previous labor governments and went into a bay, and I'm really keen to reinvigorate is, I mean, what were effectively union green reps, so people are in the workplace like shop stewards for climate change, who were working with the employers to say, actually if we stagger journeys into work, we could avoid, you know, everybody jumping in the car if we did, you know, if we finished at this time, if we got better lighting what, but challenging the employer as well to say actually we can have a more sustainable [00:14:00] workplace.
And our members love that sort of stuff as well because it's a bit of a sense of, as I say, they care about this as well. It's also, um, it's educating is they will get into education then as well. Yeah. Which will also upskill them at the same time. People can see the everyday changes that you're making Yeah.
In, in your life, but that the employee can do that make a big difference.
So just to, just to roll back quickly to the, to the changes in public service provision to reduce carbon emissions and, you think that's critical because there's such huge, it's a huge percentage of the economy and that actually with a centralized government push.
You could really make progress and do some, of the hard yards and learning. Well, absolutely. It absolutely, and it fits in with the current government's sort of agenda around reform of public services and how we deliver public services. But I think you've got a huge amount of taxpayer money there.
You've got the power of procurement where you can actually say, if we're gonna spend taxpayers money, we're gonna spend it in a way that delivers public services effectively, but delivers it. Sustainably. Uh, and we've got the members there. We've got 4 million trade union members working in public services who could put their shoulders to the wheel.
So I think there's, lots of levers we can pull in public services [00:15:00] and, actually if you are government, it's hard to ask private sector companies to do stuff if you're not doing it yourself as well. And that sort of leading by example, I think's really important.
And finally, what if you were to look at what's going on in business from a sustainability point of view, one being negative, 10 being positive, where would you say, where would you sit one to 10?
Uh. You know what I, I, I, I, I'm on a, I'm on the sort of six and a half type, six and a half. Good. I mean, I think there's been a lot of greenwashing and a lot of talk about the need for sustainability and then when it comes down to the long, hard yards of actually doing it. But I've seen our members working with, you know, automotive companies would, would jump to mind or on sustainable aviation fuels, for example,
or an SMRs where you think actually, uh, SMRs small modular reactors.
Well, I know I, I've been to more nuclear facilities than probably anybody in the country that's nonnuclear scientists, so I've got the lingo. Yeah. But six and a half, but moving in the right direction hopefully. And do, how much of a challenge do you think, sort of the break in the consensus about Net Zero in 2050?
How damaging is that? [00:16:00] I, I, I think it, i, I, I mean, you know, certainly when you look at what's happening on the other side of the Atlantic, it's a, it's a real worry. But I think we've just gotta stay the course. And actually, I mean, you know, today we've been talking about how you. Give people the confidence to invest in the UK economy.
One of the things you, you get that confidence is by stability and knowing that policy's not gonna change next year or the year after. And think a UK government that's committed to net zero engaging workers and getting to net zero can give investors the, the, the confidence that if we bet on this horse now, it'll still be in the race five years.
And so how do you feel about Kimmy Badenoch talking tomorrow and what. That, that her, her take on that. Now unfortunately, I'm not gonna be here for Kemi tomorrow, unfortunately. I'm washing me hair. No, you know, I, there's not a lot of hair there, dude. That won't take long. I reckon You get that Dar you get over it time.
It, it takes a lot of work to look this good. Now, I, I, I mean, I think it's really danger. I mean, I think what you're doing is playing politics with something that is really fundamental. So, you know, I don't really care about the internal politics of the conservative party. I actually don't think that's where the vast majority of the British public are at.
No, obviously people are concerned about [00:17:00] the economy and living standards, rightly so. But this isn't living standards or sustainability or net zero, it's it's living standards because we're leading on net zero and sustainability. And so, yeah.
where do you think the biggest disconnect is between the sustainability rhetoric and the business reality?

there's clearly a disconnect, isn't there? Between, you know, greenwashing, you talked about greenwashing. Yeah. So, so, you know, how is that being facilitated? What, what do you think are the, the mechanisms that allowing that to. You know, to, to be such a con an an issue and how do we challenge that to actually kind of align sustainability and business agendas.
Yeah. Uh, well, I, I think, I think it's about certain, get back to the sort of the fundamentals of a business, isn't it? About you're doing this, it's not because it's a nice thing to do. I. Or because you're trying to present your credentials as a good green employer, it's because actually this is fundamental to the long term success of your, your organization.
Uh, and, and it's, it's gonna be fundamental, I think, in terms of securing investments, uh, as well. So I, I mean, trying to get business in that sort of, I understand particularly when, I mean, [00:18:00] you know, the economic news hasn't been great. People are worried about being the first mover, and then do I, do I. Do, do I have additional costs that the, my competitors down the road doesn't have?
But I think if you start thinking about this in time timescales of not 12 months or two years, but five years, 10 years, that's where you see the, the value of the added investment. So longevity is the real disconnect. Yeah. And it's one of the things actually we've been bad at in the uk taking long term decisions.
I mean, you talked about Germany before Charlie. I mean, Jim, I'm not gonna hold it up as a perfect example. 'cause clearly they've got their own problems, but what they have had is a much more long termist view of investment in the environment. Uh, industrial policy more broadly on things like skills, and it's one of the things the UK has been bad at.
Yeah. And then finally, what skills or expertise will be most valuable for businesses in the coming decade?
Well, it's really difficult and I'm not sure that businesses themselves know, and this is why I always get a little bit skeptical when I hear about, um, governments and policy makers saying that our school system needs to be employer led because most employers don't quite know what [00:19:00] skills they're gonna need in five years time.
I think what you need is a system that is flexible enough. Uh, that allows people to, retrain throughout their working life and do so without fear. Um, so we've done a lot of work. We had a big pro series of projects funded by the last labor governments and kept for 10 years by the previous, uh, by the last conservative governments called Union Land, which is about supporting union led projects on learning and skills.
And what it did was give people confidence. Don't worry about retraining. Or re-skilling or thinking again about, you know, getting basic, um, IT skills, for example. 'cause we're gonna support you to do that. And I think we've gotta get people in that mindset that retrain and reskilling is part of their everyday lives.
I also do want, and this is a big thing for me, employers, to put the money where the mouth is because all too often they moan about, you know, oh the schools don't give us the skills we need. The colleges don't give us the skills we need. but traditionally they got the, they got the skills on the job, you know?
Yeah. That's how a lot of it works. And skills, investments in the UK by employers is about half the EU average, and so you're gonna have to pony up some of this. Yes. I think the education system's got a responsibility to bring kids into, [00:20:00] into your workplace who, who can learn, who are, you know, sort of not afraid to sort of work and all the rest of it, but as employers don't expect to get ready made and don't, certainly don't expect 'em to come into your business and to have the skills that they're gonna need in 20 years time.
Yeah. That's your job. Yeah. So brilliant. Paul, thank you so much. Cheers. Thank you.