Season 5, Episode 201 : ANTHROPY25: Joanna Yarrow – The Importance Of Joy

[00:00:00] I think what energizes me is that. you know, nonetheless, in this time of, big challenges, there are so many people and organizations Coming together in different ways to, look at this and come up with ideas.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: Welcome to a special py mini series of sustainability solved, recorded live at the Eden Project. This, uh, this episode talks to a lovely woman called Joanna Yaro, who runs a company called Human Nature Places who are a, probably one of the most forward thinking developers I'd say in the country.
And they're looking to do a large scale project down, uh, in Lewis. She has a really interesting background. Doesn't she? Will,
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: Yeah, she does. She does. Um, she has worked for IKEA amongst other organizations and some of the stories that she told us about her first 24 hours in IKEA were brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. It [00:01:00] was, it was over lunch, but you know what, you could probably Google it and touch for it. 'cause it's not hidden, is it?
It was just, I just loved it. I really liked
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: meatball, isn't it? And accidentally
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: Vegetarian. Vegetarian. Yeah.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: you know, for Ikea that's like half a billion meat, uh, meatballs suddenly had to be invented. Anyway, that, that's not what we mainly talked about. She, she did, she, she comes from a, uh, sort of a very, um, rather sort of tri phrase, but a very hippie background from the sort of good life as she, she.
Calls it, and then she moved into sustainability. Uh, but she's a fascinating person who thinks really differently and, and really has got a big focus on how do we create sustainable places for people to live with a, with a big emphasis on food and transport. But she also did, she also sort of took apart our questions and challenged a lot of what we were trying to do.
I mean, I have to say, we had been interviewing for two and a half days by this point, and we're a
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: she was the. Penultimate one, wasn't she? She was one of the last ones.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: we were probably a little bit fried and she sort of, she, she
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: [00:02:00] Played on
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: Yeah, she played with, she played with us. She felt like a giant cat and we were like little tired mice. And, but it was a fascinating, really good conversation.
And, and her, we asked her what her metric, the most overlooked sustainability metric would be. And her answer was very simple joy.
Joe. Lovely to have you here on the podcast. Lovely to be here. And what an amazing setting. It's good, isn't it? Yeah. I feel kind of like I'm a jungle dweller now. We've been here for two and a half days, basically are basically, yeah. Cool. Jungle, tell us who you are and a little bit about yourself and also about your journey.
'cause you've. You've had a fascinating wonder through the world, haven't you? Oh God, now you're asking. Okay, well, hello, I'm, I'm Joe Joanna Yaro. Um, oh, well, what do you want to know? What do you doing now? What am I doing now? Okay. Right now I am helping to run a company called Human Nature Places, and we are one of those.
All full companies with developers, property developers, [00:03:00] and we basically design, build, and run neighborhoods that make it easy to live a more sustainable life. That's the, that's the shtick. But I'm not an architect. I'm not a designer. I'm not a planner at all. I'm just a lifelong sustainability person, and I grew up, I suppose the journey started in a wood, a woodland in Sussex.
Mm-hmm. So I had the like really green parents in the 1970s when it was homemade clothes. Oh, the good life. The, oh yeah. They were the good life, but in a kind of really unfashionable way. Right. Um, so yeah, homemade clothes. Um, if I was lucky from a jumble sale that was shopping, um, I, you know, it's the stone ground whole meal, organic triple reused, grease proof paper sandwiches with the.
A windfall apple. I just wanted a packet of crisps. You know, look, at the time [00:04:00] it felt like child abuse. You know, we didn't, we didn't have a car, we didn't have a telly. Yeah. I just wanted to be like everyone else. Yeah. But I did live in a forest and I'd get home from school, have a biscuit, and then that would be it.
Mm-hmm. I'd be off. I was kind of in charge of things. And so, you know, in hindsight, that's probably what shaped me for good or ill, because on the one hand. I, you know, like, like many of us who were lucky enough to have hands on contact with nature at an early age, the idea that you needed to look after and ideally make a bit better.
The, the world that you relied on was something I just kind of felt it was such a no brainer. That was my playground, and it was only afterwards I started to study and learn it. And that kind of imprinted, I suppose, on me. But at the same time, I was really aware of this tension because I wasn't like my mom.
I actually wanted more than one jumper. Uh, you [00:05:00] know, I, I've always loved fashion and travel and I was siphoning off my pocket money and my lunch money to buy Vogue. And so I didn't want to live off grid and pee on the compost tea, although, ironically, you know, that happens these days. Uh, you know, I, I wanted my cake and eat it.
I wanted to, to, to have a way of life for myself. That was, you know, natural and healthy and about looking after the world around me. Uh, but I also wanted to travel. I didn't want to make compromises. And I also recognized that most people, even if they could, weren't gonna want to live in a. Sussex Woodland.
Um, and so my mission, I suppose as a person and then professionally became this challenge of how do we, how do we create opportunities for as many people as possible to live a good quality of life that is enjoyable and gives you the chance as a human to [00:06:00] thrive and flourish that also respects natural boundaries and.
Ideally makes the world a bit better and creates more equity so that more people can do that. So that's, you know, it wasn't like a plan, but in hindsight, that's been kind of my red thread, both personally and professionally. And what energizes you at the moment about sustainability?
Um, sighs you've gotta look a bit harder these days than you, than you did, um, a little while ago.
I mean, yeah. I can't believe you actually sighed at that question. It's a bit, well, I mean, look, it's, you know, it's been a long week, but it's a bit bleak out there, isn't it? So, so you do, you know, it's, it is really important to find your energy and that's actually, you know, that's one of the things for me that's been so great about this week.
I think what energizes me is that. Um, you know, nonetheless, in this time of, you know, kind of big challenges, there are so many people and [00:07:00] organizations from literally all walks of life. Coming together in different ways to, look at this and come up with ideas. I mean, you know, I suppose I, you know, I am, I'm a, I'm a bit monotone in many ways in that I've always sort of seen the world through this lens.
People say to me, oh God, how long have you been in sustainability? And I was like, oh, since I'm about five. Um, and it, you, you know, it used to be a small band of people who were kind of similar to you. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, and now it's not, you know, now it's like. There are so many people that you've never met who you come across and they're like, oh, actually, you know, I don't even know what.
Cybersecurity is, or I don't, you know, I just, all these different areas of endeavor where they are putting their minds to this as well. And I think that that is, although it's the same themes, you know, decades in and the same challenges. So many different sorts of [00:08:00] people are coming at this from different angles and with different types of solution, and it's a fascinating, and B, you know, it is encouraging.
So what, what do you think the, the main mistakes that the sustainability movement has made? I mean, I've met you probably nearly 30 years ago, I think somewhere, well back when I was about four. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I'm even older than that. I'm even older than that. Yes, yes, yes. We crossed paths over the years, so I, what, what, what mistakes do you, you know, what do you think, what mistakes do you think have been made?
Well. Uh, well, I mean, I think there's some things that we're still not very good at, um, and mistakes that we keep making, and I think that we're still not very good at making the challenge and particularly the, the, the solutions that we need to build into people's lives. Um, uh, relatable. And you know, I think we still, even though many of us are, [00:09:00] you know, the, the, almost like the problems are more tangible.
You know, we used to talk about climate change as something distant both in time and geography. Yeah. You know, it's really not, there are a few of us who haven't experienced at hands on. Yeah. Um, but we don't make the, we don't make the solutions relatable. And I think that that's one of the things that, you know, I was at IKEA for seven years working in sustainability and, and something that I.
I really admire in their business approach and also in the approach that I think we, between us, managed to craft towards sustainability was actually moving this from the, the abstract science to. Or politics or policy, as well as distance in terms of time and geography to people's everyday lives. So actually, you know, their, their whole founding philosophy as a business is to create a better everyday life for the many people, so as many people as possible.
So you just kind of reframe that to 21st century challenges and say, okay, we need. You know this, this is in [00:10:00] your DNA. The job is to create a better everyday life for as many people as possible, you know, with a lower climate impact, um, or in a nature regenerative way. And so you start with how people live.
and how they want to live. So what are people's everyday realities? What are their hopes, their needs, their aspirations, and that's your brief. And then you say, okay, well, you know, how, how might that be better on your terms? Maybe you need to save money, maybe you need to save time. Maybe you want to lose 10 kilos.
Um, you know, that's, that's actually what's most important to you. How can we then work out from that to start addressing more conventional sustainability challenges like climate or, you know, energy or waste? And, and, and I still don't think that, you know, whether we are in. In the world of politics or whether we're in the world of investment or whether we're in the whole world of placemaking, we got good enough at grounding [00:11:00] these big existential challenges of our time into people's every day.
'cause until we do that and until we make it relatable in that way, people aren't gonna give it the same priority or the same level as of interest as they do at at those other really. Um, you know, what would you call it? Human issues that are front of all of our minds. If you had to bet on one sustainability solution, scaling successfully in the next five years, what would that be?
Ooh, one sustainability solution. I. Okay. I'm gonna be really annoying here, and I'm just gonna just pick holes in the question. Um, no, I don't think that's in the rules. That's that classic example. That's an interesting question, but I think the more interesting question here is, I mean, part of the problem is what, you know, what's the sustainability solution, I would say.
Okay. It's like, well, what's the everyday life problem [00:12:00] that we are gonna create a solution to at the moment? We interviewed someone yesterday from Yeah, the. Not LSC from Imperial. Imperial. And she said something very similar and said that the problem that we have is we're not actually looking at what the planet impacts us.
Yes. And we should be having a metric around. That because that will cata catalyze people to do something about this because it affects them. Yes. Yeah. And I feel like it's 'cause it, well we're othering otherwise aren't we? We're saying, you know, sustainability's a different thing and it's that we may or may not get to it on a Friday afternoon when we're bet knackered once we've done everything else and sustainability is not another thing.
Mm-hmm. It's just a different way of doing what we otherwise need to do. And that used to drive me. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Ask anyone now asking. So, so, so, so actually to, to try to answer your question. Thank you. Rather than [00:13:00] just picking holes on it, because that's what we agreed. We asked questions, you answered them.
That was pretty, that's in the, oh, I didn't see that part of the contract. No, no, no, no, no. I thought I could, look, I've got an 11-year-old daughter. I'm very used to being challenged on before I even actually get into the conversation. And I'm just playing that back to you now. I think. Um, well, food actually.
I mean, it's, you know, it's if, if you, okay, two things. If you take food and travel that's getting on for my maths isn't very good. But, you know, probably 60, 70% of our impact, both in terms of climate and ecology. So, you know, if we were to do. Clever things in the next five years that were to help the majority of us and the majority of our meals to be more plant-based and less wasteful.
And if we were to help the [00:14:00] majority of us to meet the majority of our daily needs without needing to get into a privately owned car, then. You know, we'd have made really great strides and we wouldn't have tried to fit something else in on a Friday afternoon. 'cause we all need to eat. Yeah. And most of us need to get from lots of A's to lots of B'S during the week, so.
Um, you know, it's not, oh, you don't probably need a flying car. You probably don't need lab grown meat. You probably just need better design places so people don't have to travel so far to meet all their daily needs and they can use their legs more and, you know, plates of food that are delicious, nutritious, and get eaten and aren't so reliant on animals.
And what three things are you doing in your organization to, to reduce emissions?
Oh, well there's a lot of Hot earth still in meetings. No, um, sorry, that's a fatuous answer to reduce Well, okay. So what we do in our organization, [00:15:00] um, is, as I said, it's about, you know, designing and once the planning systems.
Kinder actually building sustainable neighborhoods. And so clearly the, the biggest way that we can address emissions is by creating those places that are enable people to live far lower total carbon foot, um, lifestyles. And so what does that mean in practice? It's things like the materials that we use for the buildings, that's an obvious one.
Those are mostly by, almost entirely bio-based. So it's about using timber and local biomaterials, um, and making them energy efficient and so on. But it's actually much more than that. It's, so we look at people's total footprint. So, you know, coming back to the point I just made around food and travel, for example.
Um, designing places so that people, um. Can travel actively. So, you know, legs and bikes, [00:16:00] um, and then co ability, so car sharing, um, and so on where needed. Um, and also that have a really thriving food economy. Um, so where food growing. Is designed into the, into the place. Um, and so that you're working with the local food, growing the bio region to kind of draw that into the design of the place and you're creating community canteens, those sorts of things.
So that's, sorry. Long answer. And it's not, so that's, so that's where, that's where a business like ours can, I hope, inspire and enable people to, you know, many people. To live in a lower carbon way. So yes, the, the residents of these places, but also the people who come to and use these places, um, on a daily basis and then the whole bio region around them, you know, it's less, uh, and it's not so much about them double-sided printing and so on, uh, as a business, although of course that's terribly important too.
what sustainability metric do you think deserves more attention?
[00:17:00] Oh, the hippie in me wants to say joy. Um, because I think that, um, as well as making sustainability an extra job, so something additional and different Yeah. To our everyday lives that we might fit on on Friday.
That's a mistake. But also framing it as some, you know, making it something extra. Difficult, worthy, and about addressing problems isn't very motivating. Yeah. Um, and also doesn't give you much energy in the here and now. Yeah. And I think actually most of what we're talking about is about living a better life.
And I don't mean that in a Calvinistic perspective, but I mean it in a, life that where you are, you are healthy. Both physically and mentally, you have social connection. Um, you have time. Um, you, you, you, [00:18:00] you are, you are not so reliant on external resources, so you don't need to have so much money.
You have more agency, you have more connection with your, with your place and your family, and, you know, those are all, there's a lot of science behind that actually, which is, you know, proven to, to give people happiness. And happiness gives you health and it's very difficult to measure. Of course, which is one of the challenges.
But actually that is incredibly important because that is, uh, very motivating. Um, it's magnetic, um, uh, uh, and it's something that people want more of. And so if we could kind of create some kind of joy matrix, that might help, that might be the winner to, kind of speed some of this stuff that might be.
If we were to significantly reduce climate emissions as a nation or globally, what would be the number one thing that you would prioritize?
Again, I'm, I'm sorry to question your questions and you do do this question. I was like, why did I end up with this question? Because [00:19:00] it's one of our final questions and I was like, I gonna, we're gonna be here all night, aren't we? I mean, I think the, you know, the, the obvious point here is there isn't a silver bullet.
Yeah. And, um, while we all sit around discussing silver bullets, we're wasting time. Um, so I think the short answer is do everything everywhere, all at once. Mm-hmm. Um. But obviously within that, find the things that are gonna be most meaningful, as in most relevant in terms of scope for carbon reduction. So things like foods and mobility are up there, um, and things where people have.
Urgency. So where, so where there is urgent look, looking for things where there's urgency. In other words, it's a big problem and if we reduced it, it would make a big difference. And where people have urgency. So yes, coming back to food, I have, you know, I have a touch point on this at least three times a day, probably 6, 7, 8 times a day.
'cause I'm a snacker. [00:20:00] Um, and, you know, I'm lucky I have, I have within reason ability to choose what I eat on an everyday basis. So, um. Yeah. Is that, that's, that's, is that a cop out? No, it's fine. It's good. That's, I think that's just the way the world is. Yeah. There is no, there's not gonna be Get on with action.
Action is the one thing. Act everyday action. Um, yeah. That's, that's scalable, but also that, that fits people's priorities so that that does give them a better everyday life in the meantime. 'cause that's what they're gonna wanna do. You, you're gonna take, she's gonna, she's not, she's gonna take this question apart.
Um, what do you ask? Where do you think business and sustainability is out on a scale of one to 10?
Yeah, I can find, I knew she was gonna, that's the reason why I didn't ask it. Well, define business. No. I heard some Bonker stats here this week, most of which I've forgotten. But one of them was something along the lines of, in the UK.
99 point, and I can't remember [00:21:00] the decimal, but it's something like 99.4% of businesses in the UK are SMEs. Yes. Yes. So think about how many businesses that is. Yeah. And think about the diversity Yeah. Of things that they are doing. And how many high street companies were here, like news agents? And we had one, one of the people I interviewed was a, um, hairdresser.
Yeah. And she turned around and said. I've not met any high street companies. No. Yeah. And I've said that there's such a, we are missing so many of the SMEs. Yeah. So I think when we say business, yeah, we need to be careful because, you know, organization, organizations perhaps, and now I've forgotten the question.
I was defined, where's the temperature between one and 10? Where, where we at? Oh, I think, uh, I think we're between one and 10. Excellent. Um, that's very specific. Brilliant. No, I, I, I, I, I think one of the one wonderful things is the diversity that we have across that range. I think that we had, you know, there are some businesses that are, you know, moving [00:22:00] towards 10.
Unfortunately, I don't think that, um, as many of them as should be, get their story out there. Um, so we just probably can just think of a few big names. Um, and I think part of the job to do is to, is to help shine a light on those leaders and the diversity amongst them so that we don't just think that you have to be, um, a global mega brand to be making a difference.
That's one of the challenges. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Joan. Thank you.