Season 5, Episode 199 : ANTHROPY25: Gbemi Oluleye – The One Environmental Metric We Aren’t Talking About…

[00:00:00] What mistakes do you think have been made within the sustainability movements?
It happened too late. Right. Damnit. That's the most it happens. That's say some of the most crushing answers to that question we've asked.
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: So welcome back to a special entropy miniseries of sustainability. Solved, recorded live at the Eden Projects in a rainforest. I think we've said that each time now, haven't we?
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: It was in a rainforest and in this interview we talked to Dr. Bei from Imperial College London, and she's. Really fascinating. She brought a really interesting, very academic, but absolutely relevant analysis of, of where we are and how we make sustainable transformations or transitions of affordable, um, which I thought was really interesting.
And I think she also talked a lot about how late we've left all of this stuff, uh, how much we've got to do in not a lot of [00:01:00] time.
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: mm. Yeah. And really very insightful with the way that she was able to look at everything. Holistically and didn't she come up with, and it is later on the BeMe metric.
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: Bei metric. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we asked Bei what is the metric that people need to look at, we need to focus on in terms of really embracing sustainability. And she, you know, a lot of people that we talked to would say, you know, embodied carbon lifecycle carbon, or this or that or the other. And she said.
It doesn't really exist yet, but if we could create a metric, so a number, a figure that talked about how much nature is going to bite back on humanity effectively, to make people understand, well, if we do this, this will be the, the backlash from nature. People might start to understand that nature is not.
just a passenger in this journey that actually at some point, you know, as it is doing, and increasingly it is gonna have something to say about the way in which we've treated the [00:02:00] world. And I thought that was a real moment of insight, wasn't it?
will_1_04-14-2025_141501: Yeah. Yeah. So listen, listen to this episode and hopefully you find it as intriguing as us, and if you'd like to get in contact with us about anything within this, do get in contact in your normal ways
charlie_1_04-14-2025_141525: and if you can get in contact and tell us what the formula of the BeMe matrix is even better. Thanks, dudes. That's sort of done our homework for us.
will_1_04-14-2025_141501:
Bei, hello and welcome to the podcast. Could you tell us a bit about yourself, who you are, and what you do, and why you're here? Oh, so, um, ooh, so many. What's your full name then? Uh, my name is Bei uh, Ole. I'm a lecturer at the Grantham Institute at in Perel. I lead research activity that finds ways to make the sustainable transition for industry, for the manufacturing sector affordable.
I. Um, so that's one hat I wear, trying to look for the [00:03:00] economic value, trying to find ways to make an, create an economic value for them, uh, but also trying to think about how they can be resilient if there is no economic value. Um, and then I translate. That into what we call an executive education program, uh, for chief sustainability officers and sustainability leads.
Just using that to support them in executing their sustainability strategies. So this is once you have a strategy, how do you. Deliver, um, in a cost effective way, uh, using some principles and systems thinking. Um, and I also teach a master's students at Imperial College, uh, on creating a sustainable future down to the economics of it, but also, uh, the innovation, um, required to drive that, that change.
So I do wear busy. Busy, yes. Busy. Yes. [00:04:00] Yes. What's, what one thing about sustainability that really energizes you at the moment?
I think it's the, it's the best way to think about the future, right? Because going are the days when what we did did not have, well, what we do always have an impact on the environment and on the planet, but I think going are the days where we, where we can get away with it.
So now it's that excitement that people have an opportunity to integrate that impact into planning into business decisions. I think it's gonna change the way we do business going into the future. And do you think it changes our VA that will inherently, basically, radically change our value set? It has an opportunity to change our value set because you are caring about one thing that does not have a monetary value per se.
Right? So it's kind of moving us from a. Profit maximization, a [00:05:00] cost minimization kind of value system to some form of a purpose. Um, and so I think it's going to, it has the potential, but it depends on how it's done. It depends on how it's adopted. Um, but if we really look at the potential, it can cause a lot of changes to how we see.
How we see life or how we see doing business. And what do you think the biggest barriers to this transition are?
Ah. There's so many, uh, to me its the cost, but it's also the way we see costs. Yeah. Yes. because it's, who is going to bear the burden. I mean, everyone can make a change but who is going to bear the burden, but I think it's, on the one hand, that's it, but it's also how we see cost.
Um, we see it as a burden as opposed to something we need to do to save us from. It's to save us from investing so [00:06:00] much more to fix the problem. So it's like prevention risk mitigation, risk mitigation. Um, so yeah, but I also think it's how we. How we sort of do the accountancy on the cost. So for example, poor quality housing, well, you know, they were gonna bring in a load of improvements to rental housing and they said, oh, it's gonna cost too much for landlords.
So they stopped that. Yeah. But actually we just end up paying as a society, 'cause poor quality housing leads to worse outcomes for people and health issues and you know, so it's, it some very poor accountancy isn't there going on. Yeah. Which is, which is sort of. Uh, actually making this make some pretty stupid decisions.
Absolutely. And, and what, what I tell businesses or what my research has shown is you have to have like a whole system perspective to this. Um, because what is a cost to you is a value to somebody else on the supply chain. So if you take that into account and there's so much data to show that there is an economic value, if you look at the big picture.
As opposed to just [00:07:00] my own silo and my own boundaries and the impact on me. Just as you, um, just as the example you've given with the housing situation, yes, it's gonna cost so much to retrofitted building to make it better money, energy efficient, but it saves money down the line. Uh, so it's that having that whole, um.
Thinking about your hat, academic hat, what skills or expertise will be the most valuable for businesses in the coming decade?
So we used to say, uh, multidisciplinary, but now we've reached a stage where it's interdisciplinary. And now we've reached a stage where it's convergence, convergence of skills. So traditionally in academia you have someone studying engineering med.
Accounting and they only meet in, even in the the world, they'll probably have an opportunity to meet together in an office. That's only if there is a project that brings all this expertise together. So something [00:08:00] we've realized is we're not training the next generation to. Think Convergently, everyone is thinking divergently.
So that's why someone would say that's expensive, but there's a health impact who are doctors will be happy to see. So I think for us, the future is this form of convergent thinking and most universities are already thinking about creating schools according to a global problem. So I know Kinks College, London, imp, Perel College, um, LSC also has like this school of sustainability.
Where we can bring that convergent thinking from the bottom up, you know, into the next generation of leaders to say, this is a problem that can only be tackled if we see the value from this, uh, whole system perspective. We had Sarah Gordon on earlier. Ah, okay.
So holistic sort of and holistic approach is probably the thing that is going to benefit business the most over the next 10 years?
Yes, yes. If they [00:09:00] can't see that holistic approach, then they'll struggle to extract economic value and it, there is, I mean, I've. I've worked with, um, data from businesses all over the world, and by the time you start putting the pieces of the puzzle together and showing the interactions, it takes time.
Uh, we probably don't have the skills to do that very quickly, uh, for them to see the business case based on this holistic approach, but we, we got there, we get there eventually.
So, ha ha. Has there been a moment, or, or, or examples you can think of where you, you, you're starting to see business goals and sustainability goals really starting to align and, and you're getting that eureka moment?
I. I think most of, most of the alignment has seen, I've seen has been with startups or new businesses where they're already thinking of this triple bottom line model from day one.
Yep. And then that's how they form their business, um, strategy and their corporate strategy. And you can [00:10:00] see the benefits. Um, I'm yet to see an alignment for already existing organizations. I see a, a drive, I see an ambition. To align it. And I mean, a simple example is most organizations have a separate sustainability strategy from their corporate strategy.
And I can understand the challenges we're trying to align because it's also the internal governance of the business. Um, but I've seen it with startups and, and new businesses and it's great to, to see that from the bottom up. Do you think they'll be able to adapt? Existing businesses. Yeah, so we, we, we looked at like over 500,000 sustainability initiatives of, of companies within 10 years and.
There's begin. People are beginning to see the value of aligning. 'cause with businesses, when they see it works, then they adopt it. Right? So I think, I think in five, 10 years time there, there'll be an alignment. It takes time. [00:11:00] It takes time. But I'm very optimistic about it 'cause there's a lot of awareness.
Uh, a lot of interest in, in adapting. Um, there seems to be a need from workers as well to operate in the space. I'm, I'm positive about it. What mistakes do you think have been made within the sustainability movements?
It happened too late. Right. Damnit. That's the most it happens. That's say some of the most crushing answers to that question we've asked.
It's also the most pragmatic one as well. No, it is. It's very insult. An honest one. I do this exercise with the corporates. I train to understand when things were invented to line on rubber iron and steel pulp and paper cement. And this was centuries before sustainability became a movement. So it's almost like we've had years to do rubbish and all of a sudden we have to fix it.
Um, so I think the movement is started too late, but there's still an [00:12:00] opportunity. To, to catch up. It require a lot of effort, but the more we delay the, the harder it gets. Harder it gets. Is there one sustainability metric that, you think deserves more attention than, than, than it currently gets?
I think it's a metric that we've not talked about the impact of. Planet on people and productivity. Right. So what a degradation, sort of planetary degradation impacts Yes. On people's livelihood and productivity. right so? Turn that around. So turn it around and bring it down to people, you and I. Yeah. Uh, so if the temperature goes up by one degree, how does it affect me?
Yes. Um. Especially my productivity in the workplace. I think that will be a game changer because the success, of an organization, profit is tied to people and processes and systems and systems are over time created from people. [00:13:00] So if we can link that to people, I think its gonna change a lot of things That's genius.
Because you know, I think so much of the framing around this is like, we are doing this to the earth. Yeah. And, and, and. Yes, everyone says, and the Earth's gonna bite back and Yeah. And everyone goes, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, fine. But it's not, I can't, yeah, it's a bit whatever. Yeah. But I actually start saying, here are the.
Here's a matrix that sort of starts to really tell you those impacts. Like you can look at, you can look at sea level rising. Yeah, you can look at this. You can look at that. Yeah. East Island shutting, you know they're there. But people, I mean, I think you, I think there's something very insightful about what you say there.
Yeah. People, you've gotta invent it though. What's it gonna be? A be scale. We need a BeMe scale. I'll think about it because. People like, I mean, the educated people can relate to sea level rise, right? But the person on the street, sea level rise, I mean, they're probably very far from the sea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well it is gonna affect about 800, uh, million people by 2050. So yeah, I mean, it will affect [00:14:00] it, but it eventually, you know, eventually. Um, but if, if it's related to. Something that they care about. And I've seen it in the communication about climate change. People are more receptive to the impact on health Yes.
Than the impact on sea levels rising or temperatures or the global warm. But once you mention health and they can connect to oh, my health, that, that, uh, that changes the game that people are more, um. It, it, they, they embrace the whole concept, uh, better. So I think for sustainability,
what do you think, um, is the biggest disconnect between sustainability, rhetoric and, and business reality?
Where, where's the real challenge there? I think. We've not created a safe space for businesses to really talk about their challenges, right?
Because most people in businesses today understand the sustainability [00:15:00] rhetoric, right? They also understand their own business reality, so they're trying to make a shift to bring it into their reality, but requires change in systems within a business that. No one understands because we've not created that space for them to talk about that.
So most times if you, if you are in a conversation and you are a sustainability ethicist, and you're telling the business you need to integrate sustainability, you need to do better. They'll say, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. We have a sustainability strategy, but they've not opened up to say what exactly is the challenge with implementing or doing it or thinking about it as a, an ultimate business decision?
Is it the people? So when you look at it from the people angle, so if you are in charge of HR, for instance, or you're in charge of accounting, you just don't have the time to put sustainability on your plate. Mm-hmm. But yet you have to look like you know what you're doing. Yeah. [00:16:00] You have to. So you have to put out a sustainability strategy that looks like it knows what it's doing, even if, and you can't admit that we really don't quite know how we're gonna doubt tackle this.
Yeah, yeah. And is it about, do you then recruit a team? So you recruit maybe a CSO, a Chief sustainability officer to raise a team, but there's no interaction between that team and the rest of the business. So it's almost like, how do you. And when you, when when I was recruited for my job, there was nothing there to say, I'll be more sustainable, but now I need to be more sustainable.
So maybe thinking about an eco, a value, an economic value to get people to think about it in their roles in, in what they do. I dunno if that answers your question. Yeah, no, I think it, I think it, I think it does. Yeah. I think it does. I think, I think that, that the fact that they need to look busy and they need to look like they've got, got control of it.
They need to look like they know exactly what to do. And rather than saying, we don't really know. Yeah, let's spend some time and work this out. I mean, I have to say there was one thing about, um, Baden Knox talk this [00:17:00] morning, Kenny Baden talk, um, talk this morning where she said, we're not gonna get 20, we're not gonna do 2050.
Which, yeah, I don't necessarily, I don't agree with, but irrespective, she then said, we need some time to work out what a real plan does look like. And on one level I'm like, fair enough, that's okay. But she did, she, you know, she didn't say, I've got the answer. Which I thought was, I'm trying to be positive.
That was a slight upside to the whole thing. I mean, no one has the answer, right? So the, the, the 2050 timeline came from rigorous scientific evidence. That's the problem from that is the problem with our argument to say that we kind of need to get to some form of neutrality by 2050 if we are to maintain the current temperature levels.
Um, and, and I know you know that that's the scientific evidence and I know. Governments around the world. Some people are doing 26 to 2070 'cause they're thinking about what's possible. What about the funds and all. But since 2019 when the UK um, [00:18:00] legislated net zero by 2050 and passed it, I think people, there's a lot of momentum.
Yes. Right. So you kind of want to keep the momentum. Yes, a hundred percent. No, I agree a hundred percent. Okay. No, I, even if you are aware of the challenges is a case of what do you do to mitigate that challenge is just to keep the momentum going. If we get to 2050 and we stop. Past, you know, we get to absolute zero, not net zero, then there's a pat on our shoulder, right?
If we get to 2050 and we reduce emissions by 10, 20%, that's a big pat on our shoulder. So I think you wanna keep the momentum going. Yes, we're aware of the risks, we know people need to make plans, but just just keep the, keep the all it was was a software of saying. I'm getting rid of net zero. She was bringing it into the conversation because that's what she wants to do.
So, oh, I don't know. Oh, Trump will love that. Don't say that Trump, Trump will love that kind of rhetoric. Um, but that's what she says. Well, that's what she's doing. She, she's trying to appeal to that, to that right, that right wing. Yeah. So move lurch across it. Of course. Um, [00:19:00] finally, if we, um, look at the business community as a whole, where do you feel they are with regards to sustainability and I mean holistic sustainability, um, on a scale of one to 10, with one being negative and 10 being positive?
So I will say the business community as a whole is aware. Of sustainability. So if I was to qualify that skill in terms of awareness, it would be a nine. There's a lot of awareness. Okay, but that's, there's no adaptation or innovation to be sustainable, right? So on the scale of adaptation and innovation, that will be two.
But on a scale of awareness, that would be NI and awareness is what we need now. Yeah. If everyone is aware at the same time, then the adaptation and innovation will increase in over time. I really wanna ask you one more question now because you've, I love that [00:20:00] simple question. 'cause it does get so many different answers, doesn't it?
Yeah. Um, in one word, what's the biggest barrier to progress in sustainability? One word mindsets. Brilliant. Nice. Nice. Thank you. Good one. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.