Season 3, Episode 093: Martin Rich
Future Fit Business | Charity | July 13th 2020 | 39:39
Martin Rich is the cofounder of Future-Fit Business, a UK based charity, whose vision is the creation of a future fit society. What do they mean by that? A society that protects the possibility that humans and other life will flourish on earth forever by being environmentally restorative, socially just and economically inclusive.
Highlights of Martin Rich
- Martin Rich was an investment banker for 13 years.
- He worked selling structured products to multinational corporations. After the financial crisis in 2009, he decided he wanted to use all he has learned for a better purpose.
- He spent 7 years on the social impact investment space where they were helping social enterprises and charities. It was back then when he began to realise they were missing the fact that so much harm was being created inadvertently by big business and by those investing in them.
- In 2013, he and Geoff Kendall founded Future-Fit Business with the objective to produce free to use open source tools that help businesses to become truly sustainable.
- They show businesses practically, what does it mean to go from where they are today to playing their role in this idea of a future fit society and to acting in a way where they are no longer breaching the scientific, environmental and social boundary conditions.
- They start to turn the whole idea of business on its head: you succeed financially by being of value to planet in society, rather than creating value by not necessarily aiding and often causing damage to planet in society through what you're doing. A radical re-shift but done through a very practical mechanism of showing companies how they change.
- In that journey, that information flowing through to investors, to help them to understand the impact that their portfolios have on the planet, and how they can start to do something about it.
"Every port folio has an impact, some good, some bad, mostly bad. [...] If you show people that picture, they won't like it. And they will want to change it.".
Will Richardon- 00:01
Martin, thank you so much for joining us on the green element podcast. There, Martin, you're from future fit foundation. Can you tell us a bit about your business? And what's your purpose and who you work with?
Martin Rich - 00:12
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. Well, it's absolute pleasure to be here. Fit fit foundation. So we are a UK based charity, co founded by myself and Dr. Jeff candle back in, I think officially July 2013. So we're about seven years old now. Our vision is the creation of a future fit society. By that we mean one that protects the possibility that humans and other life will flourish on earth forever. By being environmentally restorative, socially just and economically inclusive, which all sounds terribly lovely. And is is a great vision, but how do we how do we really how do we achieve that and the objective of future Fit is to produce free to use open source tools that help businesses to become truly sustainable. So we're not just about highfalutin principles and frameworks and ideas as good as those things are. We're about showing businesses practically, what does it mean to go from where you are today to playing your role in this idea of a future fit society and to acting in a way where you are no longer breaching the scientific, environmental and social boundary conditions that we need to abide by? If we're going to have a flourishing future? What do those boundaries mean for you as a business? How do you get there? And then ideally, actually, how do you surpass them? How do you start to bring the idea of your purpose to real life so that you are reinforcing and rebuilding those system conditions those planetary boundaries through your actions So we start to turn the whole idea of business on its head, you succeed financially, by being of value to planet in society, rather than creating value by not necessarily aiding and often causing damage to planet in society through what you're doing. So a radical sort of reshift but done through a very practical mechanism of showing companies how they change. And then that journey, that information flowing through to investors, to help them to understand the impact that their portfolios have on the planet, and how they can start to do something about it.
Will Richardson - 02:33
And I think going on from that, having gone through the future fit process with one of your people, Anna Murphy, she, we, I learned an awful lot about the organisation and the future of an organisation as well. I think we're all very aware of certifications that are out there. A B Corp is one of them. We've got ISO 14,001. And I would dare to say that future fit is radically different to that because it's enabled me as the person who runs the organisation to see where we actually need to get to in order to be future fits. Right. I think it's vital that organisations and I think one of the things that Anna said was, there are very few, if any organisations that actually our future fits. And that's not what you're about, is it? It's not that you've got to get to that place, and then you've ticked it off. It's the journey to get to that place that's almost more important.
Martin Rich - 03:50
100% and you know, people often sort of say, Well, why did you set the bar so high? What Why are you doing on things such a high set of standards, this is, you know, preposterous. To which of course our answer is we didn't set the bar anywhere. We have simply sought to translate what system science tells us the boundary conditions are and what it means to operate within those conditions. So we didn't set any bars. But we've drifted so far from where we need to be that I see it now looks like a very high bar, because polluting the planet discharging greenhouse gases, often treating society and elements of society like trash has become far too much the norm. So we have these enormous chasms to overcome these huge gaps of data that because we've just not really properly considered these issues before. So all of that is what leads us to this this enormous change that we've got to make? And you're absolutely right. The world didn't need another reporting framework. It didn't need another standard. What we identified that it needed was this roadmap, which was that the journey is absolutely critical. Yes. Ideally, one day, we absolutely want everybody to be future fit a fully future fit business. We'd love to get people in there. If we were in the certification business, we wouldn't be particularly busy right now. Because as you say, pretty much nobody is that some are closer than others. But it's, it's almost impossible to be there in today's society, the whole challenge of changing the system from within the system, operating without emitting any greenhouse gases, to procuring only future fit goods. I mean, it's not possible today. So we're not hopeless idealists. We are in some ways, but What we're trying to do is to show people what that journey looks like. So if we all start to make that journey, we all influence each other's journey. And the more we move in that direction, the easier it becomes for everybody else to come along. Because we're all finding parts of the solution. We're all helping each other along. So suddenly it becomes, you know, if half the world is future fit, then it's much easier for the next half to become future fit. So it's about that. Absolutely incremental steps but importantly, incremental constant steps towards the required future, not just in incremental improvement for the sake of it.
Will - 06:42
And what size organisations do you have going through future fits? It's a real mixture?
Absolutely huge range. So one end of the spectrum we're working with so on our development council, we've got companies like Nova Nordisk, Danish pharmaceutical company makes close on half the world's insulin. I forget the exact numbers but it's 10s of thousand 40,000 employees or something like that and they're distributing goods in well over 100 countries. The other end of the spectrum, we've had one and two individual run organisations are one of the two people organisations. We've worked with a 14 person cold storage solar powered cold storage provider in rural Kenya. So a real real mix from your from your massive multinational laterals, multi national sorry, right down to tiny social enterprises or one man shops as well.
Will - 07:45
And is it easier to go through if you're smaller and you have less people within the organisation?
Martin - 07:55
Swings and roundabouts on that one. if you are more multinational or just a big corporation, the chances are you've got people who've been collecting the data. Some of it not not all of it, but you'll you'll have a large amount of it, you'll have been thinking about these things, monitoring these things. So in some ways that that is easier. And obviously, your ability to influence your supply chain or demand information from from others is much easier. But when you're a big organisation, it's really hard to turn the ship around. Because you've got all these stakeholders and committees and boards and everything else that you've got to persuade. So all of those statements, the opposite is true. For the smaller organisation, right, you're quick, you're nimble. If your owner owns perhaps, sorry, our founder owns you know, you can just say, right, I'm doing this tomorrow. You can make that change, but your resource and your ability to find that data to influence the supply chain is Conversely, a bit a lot smaller. So I think you know, you gain on the one side and you lose on the other.
Will - 09:08
And everything is open, open. It's a cool open source is still Oh, it's called Open Source if it's on your web. I know the code is open source. I was just wondering if it is still called Open Source read the thing. Oh, basically, you know what I'm getting at your open source?
Martin - 09:26
yes. So the, the, absolutely the methodology and, and all of the, the, the, the core IP, if you like, is downloadable from our website right now. So if you go to future fit business.org go to the resources the documents page, you can literally download the zip file with all of the PDFs, you can download an Excel spreadsheet to help you do the calculation for free. So in that sense, absolutely all available. And also in the way that we've, we often say that we didn't so much create The benchmark is as curate and collate, because we worked with hundreds of experts, organisations, public consultations, the rest around the world for the first six plus years of our existence, in order to pull together the best understanding where there are underlying issues, specific things that we could point to. So simple example, when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. We didn't need to reinvent everything that CBP has done around scope, one, two, and three. The future fit goal is just about zero emissions from your operations, same from your products, in terms of how you measure that we just integrate all of the great work that CDP have done today. So finding an identity in a CDP is an easy one. Where are there other equivalent good things that we could bring in that that met or could reach up to the system science boundary conditions, and then just collating all of that together to create This cohesive set of what we call breakeven goals, all the things that you, you must stop doing so that you're not harming planet society. And then conversely, on the other side, all the positive pursuits as we call them, all the positive impacts and stuff that you can do to rebuild and reshape. So that was absolutely about drawing together on all of that experience, we could find being very clear with how we brought that together. There's some very geeky detailed tables in the back of the methodology, if you really want to drill into it. That sort of shows how we drew all of that together. But the point being that if you think we've missed something, or you think that something's wrong, or you just don't get kind of how we got to that point, that's all available. And we're open to people coming to us and saying, look, we think this is a key issue that you're not capturing, or we think you've got that wrong, the benchmark needs to evolve to take that into account. So that's really what we mean by the open source nature.
Will - 12:00
How did you get into this? I think you kind of answered one of those questions by six years of research which getting huge amount of time for research because I guess I assumed not knowing that you would have just got into it with knowledge. But so what's your background before you started doing the research?
Martin - 12:19
So my, my personal background, I'm an investment banker for the first 13 years of my my career, can always hear the people clicking off the podcast, as I say that
Will - 12:32
Just arrived on my work.
Martin - 12:36
So I was an engineer, through through through my degree and then basic became a financial engineer. So I worked on structured products, selling those to multinational corporations for the first 13 years post University working on trading floors for the big banks, which really taught me about how the financial markets work, how money flows, how business works, or or indeed At times doesn't work very well. And in 2009, as the financial crisis was, was really in full swing, I decided that I wanted to, to take what I've learned and apply it for a better purpose. It really wasn't a mayor culpa thing as much as I joke, but I really wanted to take those skills and start to use them to help organisations whose purpose really was to help make the world a better place for want of a better expression. So I found the social impact investment space, where we were looking at financing social enterprises and charities, and using repayable forms of finance within that world and that was quite nascent, particularly within the UK a decade ago. And I thought fantastic, that's exactly what I want to do take that big business and finance knowledge and skill set and put it to work in this way. And it was through the seven years I then spent in social finance into the guys who sort of came up with the first social impact bonds and all of that space. And for those who are familiar with it, my role there was partly on the product structuring but mainly selling those products to would be investors. So talking to foundations, talking to net worth individuals, people like that, who could invest in those types of enterprise. And what I began to realise over that timeframe was actually this was kind of sticking plasters on some really gaping wounds. And we are missing the fact that so much harm was being created inadvertently by big business and by those investing in them. And then if we wanted to really address the critical issues that we face today, we had to show investors of any hue, what the actual impacts of their portfolios are right now. So every port folio has an impact, some good, some bad, mostly bad. What does that look like? How could that be changed? How can we make meaningful decisions to make good investments that are encouraging companies to transform portfolios that truly reflect the values of the underlying men and women? Who are the asset owners, be they the pensioners? Or be that savings, whatever? How do we understand what that picture looks like? Because if you show people that picture, they won't like it. And they will want to change it. But we're providing also them the information that helps them to be able to make those decisions. So for me, it was that it was that realisation of the need to create that picture that spurred me to start thinking, Well, does it exist? No. Okay, who's gonna create it, and then you find yourself looking in the mirror and feeling slightly nervous. Thankfully, I met my my co founder randomly at an event in town and Jeff and I literally met in a coffee queue at john Wilkinson Volans event. And we got chatting. And he was a guy who'd spent 20 years in the mobile phone tech startup space PhD in AI, had learned about climate change become passionate about it wanted to show companies how to change. And he'd begun thinking about how do we actually show companies, what it really means to be truly sustainable, because the current suite of DJI and all of that just just isn't cutting it. And so suddenly, you have a guy who was trying to show a singular company how to be truly sustainable. And I thought, well, if we can do that in a consistent, comparable agreeable manner, we solve my problem, which is what does a portfolio look like? At which point you forget every sensible thing that your mom ever told you, you quit your job, you start a charity and seven years later here we are.
Will - 16:56
now, coming from finance, And considering the future of where of where we're trying to get to, and the problems that we have with our current financial ingrained model. And do you think that helps you because you have worked integrily within that model that is shown not to work long term? Or do you feel it could hinder you because you'll have you'll have resonated, I don't know you'll have, you'll have stuff that you've thought that everyone carries baggage. Packing baggage is what I'm trying to get to.
Martin - 17:46
Yeah, I'm broadly I think it helps I, I can speak the language. And I can understand or at least emphasise and empathise with the The pressures that that they are under and the toolkits that they are are having to use. So I think that, that helps at least helps us to start the conversation helps us get through the door. And to be able to say, look, I really do understand where you are. And the vast majority of people working in any form of business are not actually bad people. They're just doing their job to the best of their ability. And with all the constraints that that brings, and sometimes you just need somebody to come in and say, Have you thought about looking at the world in this way through this lens? Wouldn't it be great if we could help you get to this point? Wouldn't that enable you to do a whole load of stuff that actually you would quite like to do? Now, obviously, you know that that's not meant with a universal Yes, by any means. But I think being able to have that degree of have empathy but understand what the challenges are within the sector, and then be able to design our tools and framework to try and directly address that. So ultimately, what we're doing with with future fit, we're showing the companies how to be truly sustainable. But what we're saying to the investors is like, you just don't have the right information at the moment across the vast majority of things to actually make really well informed decisions. It's no slight on on your ability to make decisions, you don't have the right information. We are trying to create a world where you do have the right information. What you then ultimately choose to do with that information is up to you. Nobody's maybe got to tell them how to use it. But what I can do is I can give them that information or at least create an environment within which that information flows and then encourage them to see the benefits of investing in long term. truly sustainable organisations, if you are a long term investor, do you want to invest in truly sustainable, well managed risk reducing companies? Or the opposite? I don't think you have to be a genius investor to work. So if we can just start to show which of those organisations really are like that or trying to become like that, then you're able to see your capital in that direction. So net net, I think it's I think it's helpful. I certainly find it helpful in the conversations.
I would imagine it'll open doors for you, because people will immediately be happy to speak to you because you're not a classic hippie. Definitely. And I think, but action and I'm on that no, that's actually changed. Quite massively over the last. I'd say 20 years. I remember when I first started One of my USP is, believe it or not, was wearing a suit. And it was because most of my competitors, walked around in jeans and a T shirt. I wanted to be the consultant, I actually wanted to be a management consultant because I knew that I would be taken more seriously. Even though I probably wasn't as good as the person that was walking around in jeans and a shirt. Ironically.
Martin - 21:27
I know exactly what you mean, I spent most of my time funnily enough in jeans and T shirt these days, but no, absolutely, I think knowing, you know, knowing that there are times and occasions where actually wearing a suit and a tie is just going to lower a barrier between you and the people across the table. And take that out of the out of the picture. Right. And you can really focus on on what matters and look at you know, it takes a range, right. I think there's not necessarily anything wrong with being an old fashioned hippie and you know, we need that That range of views but ultimately, if you're going to persuade the chief executive of major corporations to to shift, you have to show them that you are ultimately trying to speak their language. You are actually trying to help them you don't want them to fail. You want them to succeed, but to succeed in the right way, and it's about trying to persuade them of that message. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, obviously, but
Future fit as an organisation, you're you're based in London, yes. You based anywhere else. You based EBS based elsewhere, I mean, are you around the world are you?
Martin - 22:40
Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so our objective is to build and catalyse fully functioning future fit global community as the aggregate of localised communities. So, our ambition is that one day we will have it was 196 flourishing future fit communities operating in every single country learning from them, what does it mean to create the the localised future fit flavour of your, of your interpretation of the benchmark? And that doesn't mean the benchmark changes, right? The benchmark is the same the world over. But what does it mean to put it into local culture and into local language? So let me give you an example. One of our most flourishing communities is New Zealand. And that sort of IO to re influence the Maori influence on what the benchmark will look like is amazing because you spent a little bit of time down there learned a little bit about Maori culture but it's it really is all about multi multi generational caring for the planet and caring for society in many ways, they embedded future culture generations upon generations ago. And I see what we've done is just put a like a modern language wrapper around it. So it fits beautifully with that culture and New Zealand as a country is really trying to properly learn from and integrate in a very positive way that that culture and so dropping future fit into that where you have Maryann's businesses, non Marion businesses, it acts as a really beautiful way of sort of drawing those threads together. So putting the benchmark into that business society, encouraging them to use it, but add that that wonderful flavour and then what can we learn that we then take back in bed into future evolutions of the benchmark to then push that back out to the broader community. So you can imagine as we start to build a new zealand community, a Danish community, our second biggest, a Japanese one, a Canadian one. All of these places bring amazing knowledge and an insight that infuses the way they use the benchmark, which means we can learn and share. So right now our job is about building those communities around the world, helping them to self capitalise and to grow. We don't intend to have like a an office in every single country we hope one day to have like a local future carrying expert in residence who is just there to capitalise the community on a daily basis. We hope to one day be able to afford to do that. But those communities will be self run self motivated learning using Growing, feeling back our job then becomes no longer building them. But learning, now maturing, re distilling back out capturing, again, learning re distilling, which is a really, really, I can't wait till we get to that point where we're a few years away from doing that. But really exciting to see these different communities growing up around the world, helping them to get started. And, and yeah, just seeing more of them.
Similar to the way the B Corp has grown actually, is about. Yeah, absolutely. You described the way that B Corp has grown organically.
Martin - 26:35
And we Yeah, absolutely. So very, very much about that organic movement built around one immutable piece in the middle, which for us is is the benchmark, and there's great you know, overlap particularly the smaller end of the enterprise spectrum there's a lot of overlap between organisations who are B corps but who are looking to become ultimately future fit in the way they operate. So, when you're a social enterprise, you know, the B Corp vehicle is a fantastic vehicle to help you along that journey to the ultimate destination which which needs to be future fitness.
yeah, yeah, no, absolutely having having gone through future and as a vehicle code.
Martin - 27:22
Will - Will27:25
When it runs, when it comes to running an ethical and sustainable business would has been your biggest struggle so far. And can you tell us a bit about how you've overcome?
Martin - 27:35
As a future fit? that's good question. I think we haven't had a lot of challenges in that sense. I guess the biggest the biggest frustration is trying to be as future fits as we can. Within a world that is very few future fit. So, we're not particularly heavy purchases of procurers of goods and services. But for example, the laptop that I'm speaking to you upon right now is in no way future fit. But my choice of what else I could buy wasn't really very much more future fit either. So hence the objective of trying to encourage all of the tech companies to start going down this route. Likewise, we do have to travel quite a bit to help build these these communities that comes with a carbon footprint, which we would ideally not like to have, but you know, sort of spending six months of my life sailing around the world. It's a bit limited on these things. So I think it's, we we've addressed the challenges that we can as quickly as we can, things like employee conditions, I'm paying a living wage where it were living living wage accredited payer great, that was easy for us to just do from day one, flexible working good conditions and everything for our employees, we could do that from day one. We found a really great office in London, a group called second home. I often describe them as we work with a conscience. And again, they are really well aligned with with our values as an organisation. So we moved in there because that was more closely aligned. And then we've we've challenged ourselves around things like maternity leave maternity pay, what does that mean for paternity leave? So when one of our one of our team became pregnant for the first time, something that Oh, I see we need to make sure that we have all of the right policies and processes in place and that are aligned with with future fit. So we literally We find ourselves like reopening our own guidance and say, Okay, are we doing what it says in this? You know, right now, the whole Black Lives Matter movement is obviously, you know, front and foremost in everybody's mind. So, things like that again, challenge, you'd say, okay, we are absolutely about social justice was one of the very first comments I made. We have an anti discrimination goal as one of our breakeven goals, but are we really capturing everything that we should be in that so it's great to, you know, take take the momentum from these things and say, have we really captured everything that we need to are we creating a space where business can learn from each other can talk about the challenges, what are the best thing case, best in class resources that are available, all of that sort of thing? So really, it's that it's that constant evolution and challenge And perhaps the simple answer to your to your question is actually that it's, it's being pulled out of your comfort zone a lot of the time, and I see challenging yourself to get out of that comfort zone because we can, we can hardly walk around the world telling, you know, everybody else wants to do if we're not, again prepared to look in the mirror and challenge ourselves to do the same.
Okay, if you could offer one piece of advice to our listeners that could help them with I usually ask with their purpose, but actually, in this instance, I'd quite like to ask them with trying to be future fit. So if you would, what would you what would that be?
Martin - 31:48
I think it's about taking a step back purposes is a great place to start. And to Imagine what would your organisation look like big or small, delivering upon its purpose only with no negative impacts at all. So, Park, cast Park, senior management support Park time, all of that stuff, just dream for 10 minutes as to what would it mean to be delivering your purpose as an organisation without causing any negative impacts and knowing that every extra dollar you make of profit as an organisation is because you've delivered an extra bits of value to planet or society through your purpose. What would that transformed business look lie? It might look very similar, but just a lot of tweaking around the edges. It might look radically different. If you're an airline, for example, you know, we all know there's going to have to be some pretty radical changes and might be aeroplanes running on on hydrogen. Maybe it might be some form of, I don't know, might micro. You know, micro personal transport powered by batteries and fans? I don't know. But what would it look like to be delivering on that purpose without that negative? And then look at where you are today? and say, Okay, what does the transformational journey starts to look like? And again, back to the early things you said, Now, think about it as a journey. Not Oh, I can't possibly get there tomorrow, which you probably can't, so I'm not even going to try. I've got a great picture of what in 10 1520 years time, my organisation could look like, wow, wouldn't that be amazing? If we all have that picture? Then we all said, Okay, we're going to start with, that's where we're going. That's the journey. We're gonna start now what's the first thing I need to change in order to start along that that journey is not going to be a straight line, it's going to be difficult and all the rest of it. But understand what the end goal is. And then start to build from there, as Jeff is often want to say, man didn't get to the moon by climbing Everest with a ladder. Right? Set the ambition, understand what you're trying to get, figure out what you've got today. And now start to plot the route. So that that would actually be my advice, rather than leaping in and saying, oh, recycle your paper or reduce your carbon emissions? Yes. All good things to do. Actually, what is that transformational journey? And could you now go and encourage your colleagues, the chief executive if you can, if you can get into their office, could you encourage them to think about Putting the business on that journey because they will flourish more in the long term. Just imagine if you got to that point, the retention of your customers, attracting the best talent keeping the best individuals working for you, de risking your business against future risks and reputational risks and things that will come along. All of that is going to give you a good long term business. Yes, it's going to be tricky to get there. And there's going to be challenges along the way. But I think that is the really, really exciting business for any chief exec and the C suite to work on. So if you're listening to this, go and have that dream, and then go and share that dream with your colleagues and see if you can persuade a few people in the business to buy in with you.
I love it. I love it. And then finally, just quickly, do you put any kind of timeframe on that do you say needs to be done by 2030 or 2050?
Martin - 36:00
Or No, we don't, because it's very, very difficult for us to put a singular line in the sand of a date, when we've built everything around very systems science specific boundaries. What we want people to do is to set their own time bound targets, and then let the the market if you like, decide and challenge, what's good. That's where you get a race to the top. If somebody says I'm going to be carbon neutral by 2100, right, that's a time bound target. It's not really very impressive is it? If somebody says I realistically believe I can get there by 2030 or wherever it might be? Absolutely fantastic. Obviously, the things like carbon we know from the Paris Agreement and other things that are are time bound targets. Basically everything else from our perspective is as quickly as you realistically can. So set ambitious goals, but set yourself goals that equally you realistically know that You can stretch and reach to and then let that's like market dynamics encourage people to be quicker, more aggressive and better and reaching those targets.
Thanks, Martin, thank you so much. How are our best way that we can connect with you to learn more? And bearing in mind that we'll be putting all of this on the website?
Martin - 37:21
Absolutely. Please, everybody, go take a look at the website. on there, you will find the thing called the Crash Course video series. That's a series of 20 video vignettes, each three to five minutes long, that actually take you all the way through the future fit concept and all the things we've spoken about today in more detail that deliberately made to be watchable over breakfast on your on your commute if if we're still allowed to do commuting. So I would absolutely encourage people to go and listen to those, watch those. They'll learn a lot more about everything we've discussed. And then On the website, you can also download all of the benchmark documents, the tools. And I'd also encourage people to join up to our Changemaker community where we have yet more resources, webinars, chat forums, where we go in and discuss all of these, these issues. So all of that can be found through the through the website future fit business.org or feel free to reach out directly to me on email. Very easiest [email protected]
Brill, thank you so much, Martin, thank you for today. Thank you.
Martin - 38:33
Thank you, Will. Been a pleasure.
Today we've got Martin from future fit organisation. They are a fascinating organisation that helps businesses and organisations alike to understand we that they are future fit, and that future fit statement is incredibly important to understand, because pretty much every organisation in the world is not future fit. That's partly down to the society we live in. And it's partly down to the restraints that we have within our economic system. And it's partly down to not being good enough. They have built a framework and a journey that helps organisations become future fit. I can't wait to introduce you to Martin. Thank you very much for listening.