Jon Fletcher of Brakkn and Big Clean Switch

Season 3, Episode 088: Jon Fletcher

Brakkn & Big Clean Switch | ​Renewable Energy | July 20th 2020 | 36:07

Jon Fletcher

The Story

Jon Fletcher is the co-founder and managing director of Brakkn, a ‘profit with a purpose’ company who aims to make homes and businesses more affordable to run while having a positive social and environmental impact on the planet.

Brakkn have created online platforms ‘The Clean Switch’ and ‘Clean Energy UK’ to help both domestic and commercial clients make the switch to renewable energy, as simply as possible.


Highlights of Jon Fletcher

  • Jon breaks down the process of working with both domestic and commercial clients.
  • Brakkn use different strategies to make the process of switching over as streamlined as possible.
  • Providing clear differentiation between the good suppliers and the bad suppliers for customers to make easy decisions based on personal preference.
  • Jon defends the criticism of REGO backed tariffs.
  • It is unrealistic to expect companies to both generate and supply energy.
  • The fundamental changes that are necessary to see great progress in impact we have on the planet.
  • The importance of studying consumer behavior in order to make new, sophisticated technologies seem approachable for consumers.
  • Jon’s personal journey with renewable energy and the ‘Big Clean Switch’.
  • Maintaining a very small team while growing as a business.
  • Working with companies that have made the switch to spread the word and encourage chance elsewhere.
  • Enforcing strict policies where possible to run a sustainable business.
  • The frustration of small businesses over lack of control of sustainability management when working in a co-working space.


"The fundamental changes that are necessary to see great progress in impact we have on the planet".

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Will  0:08  

Welcome back to the green element podcast where we feature business leaders and innovators transforming their operations to be more environmentally and socially sustainable. I’m your host, Will Richardson. And I can’t wait to meet our guests today and help you on your journey of sustainability. Today, we’ve got Jon from Brakkn, he runs a business that helps you switch to renewables really, really easily. If you’re a small business [inaudible] business, then you can switch to renewables. And here’s the process that you go through. He has, it’s all about behaviour change and communications for him and working in the industry. I totally get it and Yes, he’s absolutely right. And then of course, residential ends if you’re living in a house which on the whole most people do live in houses or flats then you should be buying renewables and he makes it really easy for you to be able to buy renewables. You may have heard of the Big Cleen Switch and that’s Brakkn, and they were the people behind that. And I hope you will enjoy the podcast. Thank you very much for subscribing. Jon, welcome to the green element podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. We know each other through WhatsApp groups and online. Wow, there you go. That’s the age we’re living in. Now we’ve met each other online


Jon  1:33  

It’s nice to actually see your face if only virtually.


Will  1:40  

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about what you do. And on that note, I will let you introduce yourself.


Jon  1:47  

Thank you. Pleasure to be here. I’m Jon Fletcher, the CO Founder and Managing Director of Brakkn, which is a B Corp that helps homes and businesses switch to renewable electricity.


Will  2:00  

Brilliant, and it would be great to explore what that is and how that works and the process that you have to go through for that, because that is a massive part of how we’re going to shift to a more sustainable economy, isn’t it? And we’ve seen the prices of renewables dropping, and it’s because more and more people are shifting that way. And we all know that subsidisation is rampant in the fossil fuel industry and not so rampant in the renewable sector. So we are going to have to be doing it ourselves. If I was a business, could you take us through how it works and what? Yeah, how you do it?


Jon  2:38  

Yeah, so I suppose take a big picture of the whole business. My background is in behaviour change. And fundamentally what we’re trying to do is unblock behavioural barriers to people making decisions that help the environment around their energy procurement. And broadly speaking, they’re the same for businesses and homes. There is a sense that renewable energy is going to cost them a lot, which is no longer the case, even with those fossil fuel subsidy discrepancies included, there is a sense that switching energy in general is going to be just too much hassle. And then there is a general distrust in the energy sector. And we’ve created the brands within Brakkn to specifically address those issues. It works slightly differently with the commercial energy switching that we do because there’s a little bit more complexity in the commercial market. So we have to be a bit more hands on, we function through what looks much more like a traditional commercial energy brokerage, but only working with suppliers of hundred percent renewable electricity and go out of our way to make the process of switching identifying a supplier understanding exactly what the differences are between different renewable tariffs and then actually making the switch as easy as possible. And then the same applies really on the domestic side. The key difference being a lot of that process is automated and we’ve worked very hard on trying to create a customer experience that makes it as easy as possible.


Will  4:06  

Would you call yourself an energy broker?


Jon  4:09  

We would on the commercial side, yeah, I think we probably close more closely aligned with if you were trying to put us into an existing parcel price comparison site on the domestic side. But yeah, we’re not particularly concerned with the labels, I think, you know, we are what we are and the energy broker and price comparison site probably sums it up.


Will  4:28  

Right. Okay. Brilliant. And are there any companies that you think are the shining light of renewables?


Jon  4:35  

Do you mean supplies?


Will  4:36  

Yeah, supplies.


Jon  4:37  

I think there are a whole host of inspiring supplies. I’m not just saying that and sort of sitting on the fence. And one of the questions that we get, I’ll come back and ask that in a second. But just to kind of loop round one of the questions that we get asked a lot by our customers is, which supplier is the best? And the actual answer that depends very much on your individual preference. As a consumer because the detail of the renewable offerings of each supplier and the way in which they help the environment vary in numerous ways and just to give you an example of that Good Energy and Ecotricity to the kind of stalwarts of the renewable energy space, Good Energy has invested huge amounts in really supporting community energy in the UK, they plough huge amounts of money into both building originally and now buying electricity from community suppliers. Ecotricity on the other hand, has invested hugely in the UK electric vehicle charging network and still owns quite a lot of their own generation sites. And which of those balance out as being better or worse for the environment depends very much on your own personal preference as much as it’s very hard to quantify them in ways that make them comparable. So what we’ve done with the work that we do was to say what people need is a clear cut distinction that says all of these suppliers and tariffs are good and anything that’s not in this list is bad. And beyond that we can allow them to make their own decisions if they want to. But one of the barriers as I was going back to earlier was in around this perception of hassle. Was it just a sense that the whole world is too complex? And so our goal has been to take the pain away and to just have a very binary, this is green, and this isn’t. And I think some of the work where we’ve got ongoing is for those customers who do want the greater level of detail making that available without putting everyone else off. But in terms of quantifying which supplier is sort of standing out, to go back to your original question. It does come down to personal perspective. Yeah.


Will  6:41  

I can see that I’m an Ecotricity person, but tell Vince, literally it’s because [inaudible] it is because of the company actually in what they do. And I just love that Maverick style of running a business and pushing you know, the vegan football team and now he’s got his own food company. And the fact that he converted his Porche into an electric, you know, just I love, I love all that. And the fact that he doesn’t look like a managing director of a massive Corporation.


Jon  7:16  

That’s it, and he’s done so much that’s different. And I think that’s kind of highlights the point exactly, because, you know, you could equally pull out some of the newer brands, like Octopus, who I think are unashamed about their goal of trying to get into a kind of everyone’s homes. And the technological investment that they are embarking upon in order to make that happen is going to have such a transformative effect on the way that we consume and sort of even sell energy within our own homes. And it becomes very difficult to kind of pick-


Will  7:51  

So what are they what are they doing what what is octopus doing?


Jon  7:54  

A huge amount of investment in things like electric vehicle tariffs and time of use charge. They have been trying to lead the way in terms of some of their export tariffs, which will replace some of the previous service subsidies they were for home solar. And so that we moved to a stage where homes stop being consumers of energy from the grid and start being almost both generation sites and batteries within a grid infrastructure, which allows the grid to be run more efficiently and homes to be run more efficiently. And they’re really sort of leading the way along along with some other kind of examples of in that space. And I think they’re exciting for that reason. And, you know, you could pick out a couple of other suppliers that are exciting for different reasons again, so I think, overall, I guess the conclusion is that there is an enormous amount to be positive about in the renewable energy space at the moment and a lot of reasons to really get excited about it.


Will  8:49  

What are your thoughts on companies because you’ve got companies that only buy renewables. Is there a place for or should they be investing money into their profits back into renewables in order to grow it because there is a thought that what they’re doing is they’re just taking what renewables is out there and then just making money off the renewables when actually what we really need is aggressive re- you know, investments into renewables in order to grow renewables.


Jon  9:25  

So I didn’t know this was gonna come up this soon.


Will  9:27  

No, I honestly didn’t-


Jon  9:33  

It always comes up. So, fundamentally, what you’re talking about is, it tends to get badged under REGOs or renewable energy guarantees of origin, which are the certificates that are given to renewable energy generators, every time they put a megawatt of renewable power into the grid. And there has been criticism of those, the use of those certificates because suppliers will buy electricity on the wholesale market, which is the cheapest way of buying electricity, and then go and buy a matching number of REGOs from renewable electricity generators. Fundamentally, our position is that the most important thing for us as a consumer, is that every unit of electricity that we take out the grid is matched by an equivalent unit of renewable electricity going into the grid. And that is exactly the function that REGOs perform. And the kind of logical tests that you can place it, well, if every house was on a renewable was on a REGO backed tariff, that would mean that all of the electricity that was being taken out of the grid by those houses had to be backed by renewable electricity going into the grid. Therefore, the grid has to be 100% green. Okay. Okay. The difficulty with REGOs or not the difficulty, but that the reason that people often level criticism at them is that because for such a long time, government efforts to increase the amount of renewable capacity In the UK actually outstripped consumer demand, the amount of renewable electricity going into the grid has significantly exceeded the demand. And so the value of a REGO has been almost negligible because not enough people were buying REGO backed power. And we find it quite frustrating that an argument that’s deployed against REGOs is that they’re too they cost too little. So you should avoid buying them because it makes it easy for renewable suppliers to green their energy when in fact what we need to be doing is the opposite and catching up that gap between the supply and demand so that the value of REGOs goes up and they start acting in the way they were intended as a market driver. Okay. And so yeah, I think the other kind of aspects to that conversation is the alternative to REGO’s is where a supplier purchase their purchase their electricity directly from a generator through something called a power purchase agreement. And that does have the advantage have meaning that they’re not purchasing through the wholesale market so that you know that every penny that you spend on your bill is going to a renewable electricity generator. But the challenge is that at the moment, those direct relationships in terms of purchasing are much more inflexible and therefore expensive in terms of the overall market. And this is where our other philosophical kind of difference with people who critique REGOs comes in. It is our belief that our overarching goal has to be to get to 100% renewable as quickly as we can. And if we’re to use market demand as a driver for that, we need everyone to be on renewable electricity tariffs. And the challenge with the hundred percent PPA backed tariffs is that they’re very expensive and therefore they’re only the preserve of the well off. And you know, both in terms of environmental and more broad social goals, I find the the notion that we should employ a degree of philosophical purity over this, that effectively disenfranchises vast numbers of people from being able to switch to a renewable supply and have an impact in terms of driving the sector forwards. I find that quite distasteful. So hence why we’re big fans of REGO backed tarrifs.


Will  13:20  

Yeah no, no, we are as well. And but let’s what I’d like to do is just kind of go back a second. And that what I was really wanting to ask on that question was that you’ve got companies that only buy renewables and they don’t make renewables as opposed to say Good Energy and Ecotricity that actually do make renewables. Is it? Is it a good thing that we can buy a light bulb or Octopus, do Octopus make renewables?


Jon  13:58  

So I think Ecotricity is one of the only suppliers possibly Green Energy UK, but one of the the big six that actually owns their own generating capacity. I think Good Energy sold most of theirs now, but from a I don’t think it matters, but I think it’s probably not, I think it might, the parallel that I always come back to is a grocery market where you wouldn’t expect a retailer to also be growing the produce. Yeah, retailers are great at retail and farmers are great at farming. And there’s no reason to expect both to be good at both. And also what it takes to be a good retailer or supplier is very different to what it takes to be a good generator, generation is hugely capital intensive and takes 5 to 10 years in sort of lead times. As a supplier of energy you can’t be possibly hope to plan out your sourcing of power in that way. Because you know, you’re aiming to grow your customer base over months or years rather than, you know, 5 to 10 years. So I’m not sure it’s realistic for us to expect suppliers in general to be generators of energy as well as resellers of energy. And I’m also not sure that it’s kind of the right answer.


Will  15:27  

Yeah, no, that’s really interesting, really interesting. And I’ve never, I’ve never actually thought about it like that, because I’ve never I’ve never thought about it from the grocery point of view. And you’re absolutely right. You wouldn’t expect Tescos to be growing all their own vegetables.


Jon  15:42  

No, I mean, it plays back to that wholesale point I was making as well in respective, you don’t expect every shop you go into to have direct relationships with farmers, because that would mean that they were there was huge wastage in the system they were having to effectively everyone was overbuying in order to make sure they had enough stock on a colossal scale, and the same inflexibility occurs in the energy market, wholesale markets create the ability to flatten out supply and demand and reduce wastage. And that reduces cost. So whilst we still have a proportion of the electricity in the UK supplied by fossil fuels, we hope that’s you know, going to be for as little time as possible, then, for those fossil fuels to be part of the wholesale electricity market is just a fact of life. But the wholesale electricity market shouldn’t be criticised for that because it’s playing a fundamental role.


Will  16:33  

Yeah, I’ve got I’ve got that great Android app that shows you exactly what’s going on with, I think it’s definitely on iOS as well. That shows you exactly what’s going on with the electricity at that moment in time. You must you’ll know it.


Jon  16:50  

I’m not sure what the exact app but there’s a there’s a really great site that [inaudible] grid that shows you the kind of carbon intensity of the electricity that’s being generated in a particular region of the UK at one time, and I think those tools are really great at bringing that to life.


Will  17:10  

Yeah, and it’s, um, but what always surprises me is that you’ve got that percentage of energy that is nuclear, it’s actually less coal now. It’s either nuclear, or biomass or gas, and usually gas or nuclear. And it’s usually about 20 or 30% of the market, on the whole. That’s, and I wonder how we can and I’m not asking, you know, how, how are we going to solve the world’s problems, but like, you know, your industry and you know, your market really well, do you see us being able to get out of that baseload more easily or, you know?


Jon  17:56  

Yeah, a hundred percent, but it’s going to take a lot of different levers. I mean, I sort of believe wholeheartedly that sourcing our, effectively our fuel directly from the sun rather than it sourcing our fuel, the sun via being buried in the ground for a billion years, just inherently makes more sense. And, you know, philosophically we we have to be able to get there. And I think the mechanisms for achieving that are very varied so, and you’re not just talking about electricity either you’re also talking about sort of other forms of energy such as heat. I think some of the measures I mentioned in relation to Octopus earlier around using technology to redistribute when demand and supply is required, is a really fundamental part of that. Because if we can get away from this situation where there are certain times of the day where the grid has enormous strain placed upon it, and other times of the day where there’s very little and we can start to link that through storage to the times of the day when renewables may or may not be generating more. And I think demand reduction is another huge component, which, you know, isn’t linked to electricity generation, per se. But we have to find ways of reducing the amount that we consume, as well as moving what we do consume over to renewable sources. And then on the heat side, things like switching over to lower carbon forms, like hydrogen away from natural gas will almost certainly be a part of the solution. And that, you know, there it’s frustrating, we’re not making greater progress in terms of some of the pilots that are being rolled out in the UK.


Will  19:37  

It’s such an interesting market, isn’t it? And I guess we don’t really know what it’s going to look like. I mean, you’ve just brought in three, four different strands and elements that are going to catastrophically change the energy markets, you know, that the energy storage and where, where we’re getting it and how we’re using it and what we’re using, it’s interesting.


Jon  20:02  

It is from someone whose focuses squarely on consumer behaviour, I think one of the most challenging and fascinating areas and also one area that we’re kind of in the process of working on new products with is, it’s all very well to know that this incredibly sophisticated technology is inevitably going to arrive. But the question is, who is going to translate that into language that consumers can understand and deploy in their own homes? And the answer probably, in truth lies in taking away as much of the work and complexity for them as possible and just giving them the end result, which is that they’re warm and they’re comfortable. But I think that’s one of the big challenges that we have going forward is A how all of this stuff starts to operate together and then B how ever that gets conveyed to consumers in a way that they understand what it is that they’re buying.


Will  20:51  

Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. It’s, um, so how, how did you get into that? How did you get into this?


Jon  21:01  

Naively [laughs] Um so I was lucky enough to start working with a great organisation called Purpose who are based out of the US. They’re effective- they call themselves movement generators. And they’d won a pot of money from the IKEA foundation to look at how they could accelerate consumer action on climate in the run up to the Paris 2015 agreement. And in the UK, we started casting around to look at where we could make a difference. And renewable energy seemed to be a good point because most people thought it was really expensive when in fact renewable electricity tarrifs were competing with some of the cheaper tariffs on the market. And the take up of renewal renewable tariffs at that point was incredibly low. I mean, it’s grown a lot since then. And [inaudible] but it felt as though it was a really good starting point. And also a really good jumping off point to start talking about the other changes that people can make in their lives. Because saving someone, 2 to 300 pounds on their energy bills, which is what we save on average, is a really good point to start talking to them about some of the other things changes that they could be making. So we started setting up Big Clean Switch, which is the domestic switching brand that runs under Brakkn and that has evolved to where we are today.


Will  22:32  

So and you’ve done really, really well with it, haven’t you? You’ve you’ve got a huge amount of take up with the Big Clean Switch. How did that how did that come about? And what what was the what was the idea behind it?


Jon  22:47  

Yeah, so  mean, I guess that everyone’s always frustrated by their own progress. We certainly want to be further ahead than where we are right now. But the bulk of our progress to date has been, we had a notion that because people distrust the energy market so much, and working in partnership with big organisations, and almost using their authenticity and their voice to talk to people about switching to renewables would be a more effective means of having that conversation then just blowing ourselves into the energy supply market, like any other energy supply business. And I think we were right to a degree we have in the partnerships that we’ve run have had much greater penetration into audiences that were previously disengaged with the energy market, and then other forms of energy switching, but it is a challenge to build those relationships with partners. And so I guess we’ve moved even though I think you’re right that we’re incredibly proud of our track record, we work with companies like IKEA, Ben and Jerry’s, WWF, Tescos. We would like to be further ahead than we are. And one of the things we’re doing at the moment is starting to explore opening up new channels that where we can talk directly to consumers as well as working through those partnerships. But yeah, we have we’ve we’ve come an incredibly long way and we’re very lucky and privileged to to work with some incredible organisations.


Will  24:18  

No, it’s brilliant. There’s absolute, it’s amazing what you’ve done. Absolutely amazing what you guys have done. And how how, how big is your team and are you stretched around the UK or are you focused on are focused in a particular area of the UK?


Jon  24:35  

Stretched I think is a good word, there are five of us were split between Bournemouth and London for reasons that are very dull, and although it’s a great thing because it meant that I got to go down to Bournemouth last weekend and cycle along the seafront, which was good for my wellbeing, as well as getting a hell of a lot done. And yeah, so we’re we’re a very small team. I think that’s another sort of thing that I’m very proud of that we’ve that we’ve remained incredibly lean whilst achieving a great deal.


Will  25:15  

It means you’re giving, you’re giving a lot more back doesn’t it, you’re able to do a lot more.


Jon  25:21  

It does yeah, I think, yeah, you always want to do more than you are. But I think we’re at a really exciting point in terms of the business and you know, being boring, a lot of the underlying processes and systems that have built up on an ad hoc basis are being hauled into line with sort of growing up as a business. And I think that’s putting us in a really good position just at a time when the world is crying out for the things that we do. So I’m really excited about where we go next.


Will  25:54  

And do you have many of our listeners will be businesses and organisations, um is it easy to buy energy through you? And is it I mean, is is the sign up? Is it as easy as the Big Green Switch was? Or, you know, how can our listeners work with you?


Jon  26:21  

So, I mean, I would I would hate it if they sort of tried to switch to us and find the answer was no on the easy question because, you know, that’s one of our starting principles. So that it would be a sad day, that the the overall process in terms of businesses is slightly more complex, because we need them to give us permission to go and get some data from their existing suppliers. And the energy market is so archaic, that that tends to be a bit of a-


Will  26:50  

It’s horrendous, its horrendous, [inaudible] authority, the bane of our lives, and every energy company wants it to be written slightly differently as well.


Jon  27:00  

Exactly, and they’ll pick anything they can to sort of render it invalid, because they know that that is the start of the process of them losing the customer. And so that that can slow down. But you know, we’re well versed in the vagaries of the demands of the energy suppliers. And so therefore can make that as easy as as easy as possible. We’ve got, you know, templates and things we can use to streamline it. Once that’s happened. It’s a much more conventional exercise in, we go away and get the quotes for you come back tell you what’s the cheapest on the commercial side, we’re slightly less stringent in the criteria that we applied to the renewable tariffs than we are on the domestic just because companies often operate under very different circumstances. And if it’s a choice between, for example, switching them to a biomass backed tariff, or not switching to a renewable tariff at all, then I would prefer to switch into a biomass tariff, but we will explain when we provide the costs to you exactly what the difference is between the different tariffs so that you can make an informed choice. And then the other thing we do with businesses that work with us love is help them to shout about it to their customers and employees once they’ve made the switch, because that’s obviously as important as actually making the change in itself is using your role as an influencer to try and encourage the change elsewhere. And one of the things that we get most positive feedback over is just a very simple window sticker that works a little bit like a TripAdvisor sticker, we do a different coloured one every year that just says, private is powered by 100% renewable electricity in 2017 2018 2019 2020 and so on and we get a really positive response to that.


Will  28:52  

That’s brilliant. That’s great. And how do you I mean, do you, from an environmental management point of view, do you run your business sustainably? It’d be weird if you answered no to this actually. No, we fly everywhere. It’s brilliant. I fly from London to Bournemouth on a regular basis.


Jon  29:17  

Yeah, no we have fairly strict policies in place around flying. We had to one of our partners was covering our travel costs [inaudible] Edinburgh recently and we had to kind of push back fairly firmly against their third party travel booker, who was desperate to put us on a plane when we were adamant we were going to take a train. So yeah, certainly travel is part of that. Recording and measuring the travel and making sure we make sustainable choices. I think tied into that, we have a soft version of what’s kind of the climate perks approach where wherever wherever possible, we will create additional time for people to work in transit so that they can take slower forms of transport for their holidays as well as for business purposes. Other areas, it’s a bit difficult for us because as a small business and I know this is in common with many others as a small business that occupies a co working spaces, we do find it difficult to influence the spaces that we’re working in, in terms of everything from energy use to wasting resources, but we do what we can. And we are making slow inroads into switching one of the sites that our offices are based in. But yeah, when you when you don’t have control over those decisions, it’s a slightly harder, harder piece of the puzzle.


Will  30:47  

It is really hard we um, that that whole small business and what impact they can have within co working spaces. comes up a lot and I think it is It is a really hard question and what can what can you do? And I there’s actually a business out there, I think, to bring together those small businesses in some kind of app or software to help influence the co-working space owners. I don’t know what that business is and I don’t know who that businesses but I actually think there is a, it comes up quite a lot, exactly what you’ve just said. And it’s but it’s that sphere of influence, isn’t it? And if you had everyone in that co working space, go, we only want to buy renewables, then they’re much more likely to do it.


Jon  31:45  

Maybe we should. Maybe we should make this happen Will, because I mean, we we did a bit of research with [inaudible] and the RE100 back in last sort of autumn to inform a report into this at the kind of larger businesses end of the spectrum that really was trying to demonstrate the level of frustration that even large businesses are facing with commercial landlords in engaging them in both getting accurate energy data, but also switching to renewables, installation of Evie charging, etc, etc. And it’s almost more acute, I think at the small business end of the scale because it’s so much more diffuse. And I agree that some mechanism for demonstrating the aggregation of demand to both landlords and some of the co-working space owners would be a very valuable asset. We occasionally get asked by our customers to provide them with kind of a standard letter template that sets out the reasons very simply why a landlord should switch and some of those other tools. So I think, you know, there’s room to provide support there as well. But yeah, absolutely. It’s a it’s an area of great frustration for an awful lot of businesses.


Will  32:55  

I’ve actually come up with a number of ideas, listening and talking to you I think we should, I wouldn’t mind furthering this conversation because actually, today I was writing a workshop for small businesses on how to reduce their impact for the future. And – I didn’t bring energy really into it because it was about the impact of the business. I’m not gonna go into it, but yeah, no, brilliant. That sounds exciting. And great. So well, thanks so much for talking to us today. It’s been it’s so I think that it’s an area that people just don’t know. Huge amounts about energy and it is so complicated. It is so complicated. And it is changing and has changed massively. I set up a wind turbine cooperative back in 2002. And I remember talking to Ofgem, and saying what I was planning on doing and the lady that I spoke to turned around and said, you’re gonna find that really hard. Why? Because energy comes from the north. And I was like, Oh, right. So you can’t have pockets of people making energy? Hmm. No, the energy structure, the way that it’s the structure is set up the grid. It just it will. That’s really hard. It is changing, but it is really hard. And look at us 15 years on or over 15 years on how different it is now and how much it has changed.


Jon  34:36  

You know, I think that’s a really lovely point to end on. Because, you know, a lot of us in the climate space get pretty freaked out by the state of things at the moment. But I think it’s worth reflecting that huge amounts of change is happening very fast and it’s getting faster, and I do think we have it within our grasp to be able to make the difference. I think we just need more people like yourself who are willing to take the leap and pioneer and demonstrate that things aren’t as hard as they may once have looked.


Will  35:10  

Yeah, no, no, they aren’t. And there’s an awful lot of positivity out there, I think. And yeah, it’s good. It’s good. Well, thank you so much, Jon, for today. And thanks for being on the podcast.


Jon  35:23  

My pleasure, take care.


Will  35:26  

Thank you so much for listening to the end of this episode of the green element podcast. Do take a moment and share this with your friends and colleagues and rate and review the podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts. I’d love to know what has been your biggest takeaway from this conversation? What are you going to do differently? Please share your thoughts across social media and tag us so we can see them too @ge_podcast. For links and show notes for this episode, visit our website, Thank you again. I hope you will join me on the next episode and together we can help create a better world.

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